Crisis unit survivability |
|
nealhunt
|
Post subject: Crisis unit survivability  Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:59 pm |
|
| Purestrain |
 |
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
|
|
Not so strange. I'm making the same argument both places.
_________________
Neal
|
|
| Top |
|
 |
|
colonel_sponsz
|
Post subject: Crisis unit survivability Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:12 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
 |
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:14 pm
Posts: 390
|
|
Sorry, neal, missed your name on the discussion over there.
Orde
_________________ "I'm smelling a whole lot of 'if' coming off this plan." Tau Army List Archive
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Tactica
|
Post subject: Crisis unit survivability Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:50 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
|
Col-S,
I've dropped in - thanks for the prod. 
_________________
Rob
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Tactica
|
Post subject: Crisis unit survivability Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:20 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
nealhunt
|
Post subject: Crisis unit survivability Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:42 pm |
|
| Purestrain |
|
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
|
|
Okay, I give. There are strong arguments both ways.
My preference would be to put them as LVs stylistically but if they need to be infantry for balance reasons, so be it.
_________________
Neal
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Tactica
|
Post subject: Crisis unit survivability Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:27 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
|
NH,
Thanks for the reply. I hope others are getting a chance to read the discussion over on specialist games as it does span multiple lists. I wish JG was here to read it as well as I think he has some apprehension about making crisis/broadsides infantry again as they once were. Seeing the debate both originating here and growing over into the specialist games area (as noted above) as well as seeing the other champions view on the topic should help the decision process on this tpoic. A decision I feel is necessary in the tau list - i.e. put crisis and broadsides back to which they once were in Epic and are in 40k - that is, infantry.
Now to just get a Tau rules revision in the works 
_________________
Rob
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Tactica
|
Post subject: Crisis unit survivability Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:08 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
|
|
FYI,
I got an ork player to allow me to run tau with the crisis and broadsides as infantry instead of Light Vehicles in a 2500 point game. It worked fine. Better than fine, it worked like it should! There are still some other problems with the Tau list, but the crisis appeared to work correctly this way.
He said it didn't seem over powering at all. In fact, he said he thought they were always infantry.
The game was a 3/1 Ork victory, 4 turns. Very close game in fact.
Also, heavy stealths with crisis worked fine and better than tetras since the cirsis were now infantry. I could actually use the jump away ability of the crisis this way now.
I previously took tetras only because the crisis were LV's and didnt' want them getting picked off if I took stealths for the marker lights. The stealths actually seemed appropriate but are still over priced for what you get out them.
At this point, crisis should take Heavy gun drones IMHO to get the formation to work.
A logical formation 'should be' crisis as infantry, with commander upgrade, drones upgrade, and stealths upgrade where all count as infantry. drones should be alblative and crisis should be meat while stealths provide good ap and markerlights. Right now, this formation doesn't work and is over priced as crisis are LV's and stealths cost too much.
_________________
Rob
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Jaldon
|
Post subject: Crisis unit survivability Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:03 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am
Posts: 720
Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.
|
Really, do not think I am trying to be rude here, but I am really confused as to why some think the Stealth Suits are overpriced?
They only cost 40pts each, and you get Scout, Tau Jet Packs, Markerlights, and a Burst Cannon that is AP3+ Disrupt and 1st Strike FF. All of this is crammed into a hull that has 5+ Reinforced Armor, and a speed of 25cms.
These guys are the best darn scouts in Epic-A to date, and I'll agree they are too expensive to use as a 'bullet screen', but they aren't too expensive if they're used as scouts.
I've given opponents fits using them as a seperate formation (Stealth Contingent), and not as a 'formation attachment'.
Just my two cents....
Jaldon 
_________________
Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Tactica
|
Post subject: Crisis unit survivability Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:28 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
|
|
I just haven't gotten my value out of them.
I do admit that I typically want them in a crisis formation as they should work well together, that's a crisis LV problem though.
As a stand alone formation, they are really too small to get engaged and Tau in general aren't the best army to go getting into h-t-h with. Their limit range means even when you move up to position yourself and fire away, you are likely doing a double to do so. That means you are at 4+ if the enemy is in the open. I don't know about you, but my opponent's infantry is usually well dug in, so now 5+ and that assumes I can get close enough to fire away on them.
In my games, they seem to usually die pretty quick and are typically a good ml formation if I can get them into cover. That's about it.
This formation is more value to me as an upgrade to the crisis - if the crisis will become infantry as it seems most army champions agree that 'in general' such units should be infantry.
Perhaps at that time, my opinion of the crisis would change.
_________________
Rob
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Jaldon
|
Post subject: Crisis unit survivability Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:10 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am
Posts: 720
Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.
|
There really isn't any dedicated scout formations in Epic-A that can stand up to an assault, or take any kind of real abuse.
Stealth Suits can stick their noses out a bit further then most scouts (Because of Tau Jet Packs), make a great 'trip wire' force, and make great 'formation mixers' that provide excellant FF support.
There value has to be based on all of these as well as their utility as a bullet screen for Crisis Battlesuits, otherwise they end up scewed to far off their point values.
Now I accept that all players have different ways of doing things, and it is obvious from your posts exactly how you feel the Stealth Suits best fit into your style of play. However you must also accept that others may have ways of exploiting the Stealth Suits other abilities that fits into their style of play.
However, these also need to be taken into account in their points values.
Just my two cents.
Jaldon
_________________
Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
baronpiero
|
Post subject: Crisis unit survivability Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:34 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:38 pm
Posts: 186
|
|
IMO, the stealth upgrade is worth taking when you comprare them to smaller drones. Stealth can soak-up less hits but provide a lot more firepower and hitting potential in an assault, + scout + ML.
About heavy drones, I haven't considered them much, mainly because I cannot field them. But they do look a real bargain as they basically combine the abilities of smaller drones and a stealth at a nice price.
Maybe heavy drones should not be allowed outside of a drone contingent. That's what they fluff suggest: heavy drones have better I.A. in order to be used as a main fighting force.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Tactica
|
Post subject: Crisis unit survivability Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:21 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
|
|
Reducing heavy drones to drone only formations in order to make the stealths seem better seems like a really bad way to solve a problem with the stealths!
The heavy drones work as is.
The stealths - in jaldon's case, work as is.
The stealths - in my case - do not work as is as they are useless when fielded with crisis.
This latter problem can be fixed by applying the crisis and broadside fix of eliminating LV as discussed both here and on specialist games forum at length.
Then the stealths may be fixed on all fronts without adjusting their points - time will remain.
A knee jerk reaction to another formation/unit that is working is definitely NOT the right solution here IMHO. On the other hand, there is a very logical fix - make the crisis and broadsides infantry.
Allows us to eliminate the 'drones' special rule all together. Allows crisis to work the way they should by the precident set by the majority of development champions. Finally, it puts the stealths in position to effectively work in the crisis formations.
_________________
Rob
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Jaldon
|
Post subject: Crisis unit survivability Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:22 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am
Posts: 720
Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
baronpiero
|
Post subject: Crisis unit survivability Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:11 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:38 pm
Posts: 186
|
|
Well, dropping heavy drones as an upgrade is a bit radical I admit.
The heart of the problem is that heavy drones just seem to take the best of stealth and light drones as a result, they tend to overshadow both of them. So if we don't want to have to drop them as an upgrade, we should try to make heavy drones a 3rd choice rather than a best-of-drones-&-stealth.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Tactica
|
Post subject: Crisis unit survivability Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:00 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241
|
Jaldon,
Thank you for giving crisis a go as infantry. I've had the opportunity to use crisis and broadsides once as infantry with great success in playtest. Once does not make a basis for change though. I'm glad to see others giving it a go.
I have my campaign conclusion game this weekend, so dont' know if we'll have time for an epic game or not. If I can, I'm goign to try and get a 2K or 2500 pnt game in saturday. I've found that the majority of my group is OK with crisis and broadsides being tested as infantry now. (Some of them thought they were already anyway) so to my surprise, I'm going to be able to test this out much more than I originally expected. Frankly because it just makes sense to them. If terminators, ogryns and obliterators are infantry... then...
Baron P,
The heavy drones become a valid third choice when stealths work with crisis formations as they should. If all are infantry (crisis included) then the RA on the stealths now has value as does the markers they carry. Scout actually has its uses on this formation - again - *IF* crisis and broadsides are infantry.
As I said previously, stealths *may* not need a point reduction, heavy gun drones won't be the defacto standard upgrade choice for crisis as stealths will have viability, the special 'drones' rule could go away simplifying the list, and crisis wouldn't have a less powerful than stealths or terrain problem - all by changing one thing.
Crisis and Broadsides properly defined as infantry.
I would encourage others to give this some playtest and report on success/failure. I'm going to try and get some more games in with this now that my group has ok'd it... (well, all that have responded to the inquiry have approved it thus far anyway - and the majority have responded!) 
_________________
Rob
|
|
| Top |
|
|
