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Critique My Salamanders

 Post subject: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:05 am 
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This is a first pass at a Salamander force. It's over 20 years since I last played Epic, and I haven't even fully digested the EA rules yet, so I'm sure there are things that can be fixed here. I have yet to determine what commanders to allocate, any feedback on that welcome as well. This is a 6,000 point force. As a bonus, it looks like everything on the list should be pretty easy to acquire.

LINE DETACHMENTS
Devestators [625]
+ Commander
+ Salamander Devestators
+6 Razorbacks (3 x Las, 3 x Hvy Bolter)
+ Hunter

Tacticals [600]
+ Commander
+ Salamander Tacticals
+8 Razorbacks (4 x Las, 4 x Hvy Bolter)

Tacticals [475]
+ Commander
+ Salamander Tacticals
+ Hunter

Tacticals [450]
+ Salamander Tacticals
+ 2 Salamander Dreadnoughts (Missile/Las)

Tacticals [375]
+ Commander
+ Dreadnought (Multimelta/PF)
(Thunderhawk)

Whirlwinds [275]

Terminators [675]
+ Supreme Commander
+ 2 x Landraider and 2 x Landraider Redeemer

Predators [335]
(2 Destructor, 2 Annihilator)
+ Landraider Redeemer

Land Raiders [350]
+ 1 Helios Upgrade

RESTRICTED/ALLIES
Marauders [250]

Thunderbolts [175]

Thunderhawk [200]

Assault Marines [200]
+Predator Incinerator

Warhound Formation [500]

Warhound Formation [500]

TOTAL: 5,985.


Last edited by Sable Wyvern on Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:12 pm 
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Changed the list to account for the fact I can't split a formation across two Thunderhawks.


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 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:20 pm 
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It is characterful, but i am worried if the adversary will not take advantage of the difference in size between the formations to reduce your activations fast, leaving your remaining ground formations isolated on turn 3.

I suppose that the Commanders are there purely from a background pint of view, because you only need one per three ground formations at most, if you want to go heavy on Commanders.

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 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:55 pm 
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Abetillo wrote:
It is characterful, but i am worried if the adversary will not take advantage of the difference in size between the formations to reduce your activations fast, leaving your remaining ground formations isolated on turn 3.

I suppose that the Commanders are there purely from a background pint of view, because you only need one per three ground formations at most, if you want to go heavy on Commanders.


Other than including at least one Thunderhawk (because I still have few old models and feel the need to use at least one of them), I'm not too attached to anything specific. I want the list to be competetive, but also fun to play, and to play against.

I was already thinking about dropping the Assault formation. If I drop a couple commanders as well, I'll have some points to look at starting to reinforce some of the othe formations.


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 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:25 am 
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Second try. Assault gone, fewer commanders and dropped the Marauders. Bulked up some of the other formations.

LINE DETACHMENTS
Devestators [625]
+ Commander
+ Salamander Devestators
+ 6 Razorbacks (3 x Las, 3 x Hvy Bolter)
+ Hunter

Tacticals [725]
+ Commander
+ Salamander Tacticals
+ 8 Razorbacks (4 x Las, 4 x Hvy Bolter)
+ Predator Incinerator
+ Hunter

Tacticals [450]
+ Salamander Tacticals
+ 2 Dreadnoughts (Missile/Las)

Tacticals [600]
+ Salamander Tacticals
+ 4 Razorbacks (2 x Las, 2 x Hvy Bolter)
+ 2 Landraider Redeemer

Tacticals [325]
+ Dreadnought (Multimelta/PF)
(Transport in Thunderhawk)

Terminators [675]
+ Landraider Tpt (2 Std, 2 Redeemer)
+ Supreme Commander

Whirlwind [275]

Predators (2 Annihilator, 2 Destructor) [400]
+2 Landraider Redeemer

Landraiders [550]
+ 3 Helios Upgrade
+ Landraider
+ Hunter

RESTRICTED/ALLIES
Thunderbolt [175]

Thunderhawk [200]

Warhound Formation [500]

Warhound Formation [500]


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 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:26 am 
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You’ve got loads of very expensive formations there. Your opponent will probably have a signifiant activation advantage and can save using their most powerful or tactically signifiant formations until after you’ve run out of activations in a turn, so using lots of expensive formations can be a competitive disadvantage. It’s commonly recommended for most lists to aim to have 3-4 formations per 1,000 points the game is being played at, or 18-24 at 6k, whereas you only have 13. Occasionally some armies will have higher or lower than the 3-4 per 1k (a titan legion army for example) but it’s a reasonable ballpark to aim for.

Most Epic games are 3k and less often 4k points. Larger points games are definitely viable but you might be better off learning the game playing 2k or 3k points and then building up to higher points once you and your opponents are more familiar with the rules and strategies.


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 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:36 am 
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Go big or go home, I say. ;)

I take your point though. I clearly misinterpreted what Abetillo was trying to say. Back to the drawing board I go.


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 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:07 am 
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You could still have similar numbers of models on the table, so overall your army would be look as big overall, you'd just be better off tactically dropping most of the formation upgrades and using more formations instead.

I would normally take 2 or 3 Hunters in a 3k list so you'd want more for a larger army. AA is important.

Most people add only a single Razorback to a formation too. You still get the full complement of free Rhinos that way and the formation is slightly less at risk of getting slowed down by having a transport destroyed.


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 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:16 am 
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Sable Wyvern wrote:
Go big or go home, I say. ;)

I take your point though. I clearly misinterpreted what Abetillo was trying to say. Back to the drawing board I go.


Well, we were writing about different things. Also, your first list was Ok from the point of number of activations (around 3), but i was writing about how some were very small compared with the tacticals, making them obvious objectives. So, to summarize, it is about difference on size between the activations more than the total number for your first list.
At this number of points you can use less activations per 1000 points and be good, but the activations on the second are too low, and on the first around Ok, if you leave no weak points or add one more activation.
About the Razorbacks, while its spam is very uncommon and it is more common on competitive to use just 1 or 3 per formation, it is not really bad if you do not go overboard with the activations, so i have said nothing, same as with some others which are not bad neither the best ever option, as you say you do not want to go fully compettive.

I am of the same opinion as GlynG that you should learn the game by playing around 2000 points or less first, and i would add to that to leave aircraft and spacecraft aside for the first games, as those are the most complicated rules. Aim for lists of 2,5k-4k points first, and later 6k if you want.

Sable Wyvern wrote:
I was already thinking about dropping the Assault formation. If I drop a couple commanders as well, I'll have some points to look at starting to reinforce some of the othe formations.


I thought the Assault were going on the Thunderhawk, and there they are Ok, but as a ground formation, yeah, better remove them save if you go with a list with over 4 activations per 1000 points or play at 1,5k or less. They do not have punch enough by themselves and break easily, so putting them on a Thunderhawk, solves that a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:22 am 
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Thanks again for the feedback.

It's the assault rules that seem the most complex too me, and I get the impression that mastering assault is one of the key components of success. After seeing numerous people posting about the aerospace rules, I was actually surprised they seemed reasonably straightforward at first glance (I assume the complexity is in special cases).

My primary opponent is likely to be a little more cautious than me ... if he doesn't want to leap into 6,000pt games, we'll most likely start smaller. But building this list, working out what minis I'm going to need and learning useful things in the process is enjoyable.

I think this incorporates most of the feedback received so far (although it utterly ignores the advice to avoid air and spacecraft), and I've managed to ensure that every infantry formation has something burny, other than the termies going in one of the Thunderhawks.

LINE DETACHMENTS
Devestators [475]
+ Commander
+ Salamander Devestators
+ Hunter

Tactical [325]
+ Dreadnought (Multimelta/PF)
(Thunderhawk transport)

Terminators [325]
(Thunderhawk transport)

Terminators [625]
+ Commander
+ Landraiders (2 Redeemer, 2 Std)

Tactical [550]
+ Supreme Commander
+ Salamander Tacticals
+ Razorback
+ Hunter

Tactical [425]
+ Razorback
+ Predator Incinerator
+ Hunter

Tactical [450]
+ Salamander Tacticals
+ Razorback
+ Hunter

Whirlwind [275]

Predators [325]
+ Hunter

Predators [250]

Vindicators [225]

SUPPORT/RESCTRICTED
Fast Attack [200]
(5 Landspeeders)

Strike Cruiser [200]

Thunderhawk [200]

Thunderhawk [200]

Thunderbolt [175]

Warhound [275]

Warhound Pack [500]


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 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:30 am 
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As a free bonus, here are two 25-year-old Thunderhawks, pulled out of the bottom of an old box of bits and pieces, freshly primed and waiting to be turned green.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:01 pm 
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Those are some good Thuderhawks.

About what you were talking, the assault rules can get complicated in some cases, but they are some basic rules you cannot avoid them which is not the same case with War Engines and aircraft. Also, making no air games is easy.

The list looks Ok, now just play some games and tune it to your liking. At first it will not go too good as Marines are hard to master on EA, but they are fun due to all the options they can bring onto the table.

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 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:36 am 
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Abetillo wrote:
Those are some good Thuderhawks.


They look even better now (at least, I hope they do).

Image

Quote:
About what you were talking, the assault rules can get complicated in some cases, but they are some basic rules you cannot avoid them which is not the same case with War Engines and aircraft. Also, making no air games is easy.

The list looks Ok, now just play some games and tune it to your liking. At first it will not go too good as Marines are hard to master on EA, but they are fun due to all the options they can bring onto the table.


I'm not saying the assault rules are too complex, simply that I'm surprised people playing the game can get a handle on them, while still saying the aerospace rules are too complex. We'll see what happens when I actually play.

I definitely love the concept behind the assault rules; I'm extremely impressed with what the designers have set out to do.

Since I have little to do as I wait for minis to arrive (or come into stock so I can order them), I've spent a fair bit of time going through the rules and the FAQ. There's definitely complexity there, and a lot of edge cases, but for the most part, the answers in the FAQ seem to be a fairly clear and logical extension of the rules text. The community has done a pretty good job, and core rules seem to be quite solid. Again, we'll see how the actual game goes, but I haven't seen anything that jumps out as me as "not the way I'd like to see it done".


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 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:20 pm 
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Ok, if there is some part of the assault rules that you have a harder time with, please ask.

Also, in my opinion, if it were me i would play some games before those miniatures arrive, even if it is with papers (you could use these gorgeous ones viewtopic.php?f=4&t=33143 ), to know better what suits you to plan future purchases. We can tell you the best choices but if it does not suit your play-style it will be for nothing. ;)

Sable Wyvern wrote:
I have yet to determine what commanders to allocate,


I have noticed we never answered this one. Commanders are for when you want brute strength or have two formations on drop pods or in a single Thunderhawk, Librarians when you plan to assault in FF (mainly for Tacticals and Devastators) and Chaplains for CC (mainly for guys on Thunderhawks or Drop Pods). In your case, the first two can be good sometimes just for Leader, on the biggest formations who do not have the Supreme Commander, to remove the last BM.

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 Post subject: Re: Critique My Salamanders
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:21 pm 
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Agreed with Abetillo – what you have is certainly playable to get a hang of things for some initial games, following that, this would be my critique:

Would echo the other advice and also perhaps precede that by recommending you base your army on the codex marine list – with the option to run it as salamanders – rather than just build it as dedicated salamanders. This doesn't stop you painting them as salamanders or using them that way, but you have more flexibility if you can run them as either, especially important if you have yet to fully get to grips with the rules.

I'm saying this as someone who has put a lot of effort into building a salamanders force and has used them in narrative campaigns featuring the salamanders– they mostly get played as codex marines rules wise, but that doesn't make them any less children of Vulkan in the game.

I would strongly recommend a minimum of 2 scout formations, at the moment you have zero listed. And at 6k points maybe a 2nd land speeder. Once you get the hang of assault rules you'll find marine scouts are an amazing unit and land speeders are great for support fire and crowd control. Have enough razorbacks so you have the option to take 1 razor per scout formation where points permit. In games i've played, terminators or scouts are often the MVP – it's scouts far often than you might expect from their comparative points cost.

On the commanders note, as other has said, commander is actually the least used 'commander'. Supreme commanders and chaplains are most useful, chaplains should go in any terminator, bike, assault formations where you have the points. Librarians and regular commanders are non-essential and most lists at 3000–4000 points would have zero of either, compared to 1–2 chaplains and 0–1 sup coms. I would always take the supreme commander for new players, but marines can work without one later if needed.

I would not take terminators in land raiders ever in smaller points games, although at 6k you could justify it on fluff. Still, it's an eye-wateringly expensive formation – at 6k you could just take a warlord titan as bts.

At 6k I would take more thunderbolts, or at least have the option to do so. Warhounds are generally best as singles, not pairs, unless you really can't spare the points. You have a lot of tacticals, while they are a very tough formation, espec with that MW FF upgrade, I would recommend swapping some for distinct devastator formations with the option for pod deployment. Devs + 1 dread in pods is a great drop formation to use to target enemy AA to open up the LZ for thawks.

Landing craft are v fun if you can find one, espec at 6k: useful to have one in the mix, but admittedly not new player friendly as a unit at all.

If you do nothing else from this post – get some scouts! :D


great looking thawk, old style minis look great in salamander colours, here's a couple of mine:
Image

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