Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 185 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 ... 13  Next

Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them

 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:15 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 9:03 am
Posts: 174
The way I use the Spears, and the way I've seen them used, is mainly for clipping assaults. With double inspiring, you can prep with a blast marker and be up by 4 before the dice are rolled. Spears then have the 50cm engage range to hit where they want, and a good save to bounce off most incoming fire (not that there will be much, if done right). It doesn't matter if neither side takes casualties (from the Eldar view) as they'll likely be up by 3 in the roll-off (or up by 5 against smaller formations), giving a very good chance of breaking the enemy (and causing hackdown casualties). The Spears are then mostly unharmed, ready to do the same trick next turn- it's hard to counter.
Hawks have similar speed, but not the armour, and other aspects either tend to lack the 'run' after the 'hit' (if Vampire or Storm Serpent based), or they're expensive (if Wave Serpent based).

I think Spears are helped a little by the often mis-played supporting fire rules, but they often don't need the help to break things anyway.

I think this style of play contributes to the problems Eldar face with Fearless units in oz (as they're denied hackdown and follow-up voidspinner kills).


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:05 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:13 am
Posts: 361
Location: Oz
Before we go too far down this well trod path. I think it is fair to say that au opinion is that SS are good for aslt threat bubble and have a good save and are good at breaking prepped units with the 2 inspiring characters. Ss are used fairly heavily in au builds compared to uk euro or us builds.

The uk eu us opinion is that the other aspects and other delivery methods have greater efficiency than SS.

I can see merits of both opinions. Having run different combos of aspects over the years. I think the safest option is to say that we agree to hold divergent views.
Cheers
Jim


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:29 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:39 am
Posts: 491
Location: Sweden
Well said. I certainly agree to disagree.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:23 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:43 pm
Posts: 1286
Location: Devon, UK
JimXII wrote:
I can see merits of both opinions. Having run different combos of aspects over the years. I think the safest option is to say that we agree to hold divergent views.

Aye.

_________________
The Wargaming Trader
NetEA Death Guard Army Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:32 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:01 pm
Posts: 1501
JimXII wrote:
I can see merits of both opinions. Having run different combos of aspects over the years. I think the safest option is to say that we agree to hold divergent views.
Cheers
Jim


How disgustingly even handed, reasonable, and sensible. This is an Internet forum you know! :-) ;-)

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:31 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 9191
Location: Manalapan, FL
Is now the time for me to tell a colorful insult and chuck a chair at someone? ;)

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:16 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:43 pm
Posts: 2506
Location: UK
I hope you see this as constructive- I perceive that there is a bit of a backlash here from non-AU players who may be thinking that there is a distinct pattern arising from AU tournaments, ie that a good player brings a list to a tournament and then it is overpowered/banned/whatever. That may be an unfair characterisation but it's probably a good idea to reflect on that and use some of the advice to be a bit more objective before bringing down the nerf bat. This perception gap itself causes problems and makes people less likely to take the issues seriously (the "boy who cried wolf" effect, if our non-English friends will forgive me). In the U.K. the same new lists do pop up, and win big. Then people adjust their lists, the meta changes, and we wait a couple of seasons. Sometimes changes are made but very rarely are they to the extent that people might expect at the beginning, because usually people have found the list's weaknesses by then and everyone moves on with their lives. So this is why it seems natural to respond to concern about a list by suggesting ways to beat it - i.e. changing your meta. I do think it is reasonable to expect you to actually try that before expecting the rest of the world to just believe you when you say shining spears are clearly the best aspect followed by swooping hawks - as our data does not back that up, and it's not because we have never used shining spears.

Unfortunately there is just too much of that kind of hyperbole, anecdote and contradiction at the moment and that does make it look (to others) like confirmation bias. For instance, a list is overpowered because you drew against it, whereas I am sure people from "outside" look at the other lists that were played and probably conclude that they are uncompetitive and thus it's no surprise it wins. If you believe it's OP and you lost against it personally, you will be ready to discount the similar list you beat 4-0 and downplay the impact of random chance and player skill. But on the other side of the world nobody is going to believe that list is OP until it starts beating better players consistently after a period of adjustment in lists within the meta. I'm not saying who is right I'm just pointing out the perception gap.

I think if you don't want to try the "adapt, reflect, tweak" approach and instead want to make instant course corrections then it is perfectly acceptable to go off and do those locally, but at the same time I believe the community has shown it can respond (as a great lumbering beast perhaps!) e.g. for krieg. So what do we do about it? It has been raised several times but I really think you need to approach it in a much less anecdotal way, and as KIC alluded to and has been pointed out many times, an advantage the UK has here which makes it frustrating for you guys to break through is the availability of data. Start collecting it! Right there in my signature is an app I created exactly to help NetEA to do exactly that (even though I play EpicUK lists - shock horror!). It's not pretty and no doubt it needs tweaks but it does work and I am ready to give you what you need to help collect the data consistently if you want to. You guys are organised enough to have tournaments over large distances and your own forum, why not just start entering all your tournament and competitive games? Want a way to do it in bulk? Let's talk.

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:49 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:35 am
Posts: 200
Kyrt, thanks for your post. I don't disagree with what you said and you do present reasoned ideas.
Yes we Australians could benefit from better data collection from our growing tournaments and this is something we are currently working on. Yes recent changes to DKOK lists happened on the back of Australian events and the tireless work of Matt Shadowlord, showing the system can work.
You suggest the "adapt, reflect, tweak" approach which makes sense...

If I may ask two questions that I have often wondered.
Why do you need EpicUK lists? Why not use those lists that the rest of the world (well maybe not the French) use and focus that data collection of the UK community on the greater good of the NetEA lists?

Mic


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:59 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:35 am
Posts: 3323
Location: Norrköping, Sweden.
My thoughts on why EpicUK lists are needed:

The EpicUK lists are way more balanced and sensible IMO. They're created with tournament games in mind by very experienced players. NetEA suffers from a slow powercreep with a host of AC:s that neither got the skill or knowledge to make balanced lists. I'm one of them i think (seeing that the Gargants last version had a very high win ratio).

If I could I would simply adopt the EpicUK lists for the wholee world and build new lists from them. EpicUk just does it better. And I'm Swedish so i'm not a part of the group.

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:29 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 6332
Location: Leicester UK
*disclaimer - I am not part of, nor do I speak for EpicUK*

I think EpicUK came into being in part due to this kind of situation, it's hard when you have groups that don't interact 'on the table' as it were, trying to convince others of list problems, and really puts a lot of inertia on the development process when everybody gets a say, if you look at the OGBM thread as an example, mordoten has been doing stellar work but is being pulled this way and that by lots of people with very divergent opinions, I know, I'm one of them ;) as an example there, pretty much every game I've played with OGBM has been a loss, so from my POV they seem very weak, but lots of others (including other UK based guys like Tiny-Tim and E&C) have had very different experiences, I'll freely admit I'm not the best player around, and out of the guys I play regularly with, am easily the least competetive, but I have definitely tried to take feedback from others and implement their ideas and I still see the list as underwhelming

The second part, which is tied to the first, is that NetEA can be very very slow.... if you look at the number of lists being approved, it can really drag at times, despite the efforts of guys like PFE200. EpicUK closes off the development and as a result can get lists put out much faster because they have fewer people to please, sometimes they're similar to the NetEA variant, other times they're wildly divergent (take tyranids for example)

I think really it comes down to tournament organisers, I think EpicAU is a great idea and will hopefully go a long way to making the AU scene more fulfilling for all of the players, and will undoubtedly churn out some great lists that people all over want to play (like lots of people outside the UK prefer the EUK nid list) it's highly unlikely that we're ever going to agree on everything (or even most things) which is fine, but is probably going to lead to frustration and circular debate

Sometimes I think people need to be more pragmatic and just accept the direction the AC sets for a list, even if they don't fully agree with it, in my mind it's better to get the lists approved, THEN work on rebalancing and really the best evidence for this is to play lots of games, batreps with activation by activation pics are obviously the best but again, I'm guilty of not doing this, our next best option would be to use Kyrt's battle tracker (which I'm going to use to store my batreps in from now on) to build up a searchable, consistent database from around the world

Finally, lots of us in the UK *do* contribute data to the NetEA project, I'm AC for two NetEA lists and have been playtesting the OGBM list as well, but more data on the established lists like Biel-Tan is going to come from EpicUK tournament data because that's where those lists are used most

I'd prefer it if we could all be on the same page, but I don't think that's going to happen, I mean if the ERC ruled it, would guys downunder stop playing TLOS for the purposes of batreps, or would the UK guys stop playing area terrain? would that be productive and standardising, or more likely, would it just alienate entire groups of playtesters who disagree?

_________________
NetEA Space Marine, Imperial Fists and Blood Angels Army Champion

NetEA Red Corsairs Army Champion

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator


Last edited by kyussinchains on Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:33 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:47 pm
Posts: 1736
Location: Wiltshire, UK
Kyuss is on the money here for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:00 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20871
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Reedar wrote:
Kyuss is on the money here for me.

Yup.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:43 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5477
Location: London, UK
Agreed. IIRC The main driver behind E-UK development was originally speed of change / approval. Over time, other benefits have emerged, not least tailoring the lists to suit the UK meta, or in the specific context of the Eldar, reversing the 2008 changes that created the SoV formation.

Steve, Dptxys, Tim, Yme-Loc, Mike etc. anything else to add?

For what it's worth, although the Aussies (and other communities) can go down this route, I suspect the significantly greater distances in Australia will make it harder to implement and maintain.
So I would strongly recommend first trying to impose some form of constraint / encouragement similar to the UK championship that gets players to take different races to the various tournaments. I agree with Kyuss that this aspect of the UK championship more than anything else has taken the sting out of any given list while keeping the top guys on their toes. Sure, some lists are slightly more powerful or popular than others, but it means that Average Joe gets to be thrashed by the 'top guy', rather than the 'top list', reducing the perennial cry to nerf the top guy's list.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:11 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:01 pm
Posts: 1501
Ginger wrote:
Sure, some lists are slightly more powerful or popular than others, but it means that Average Joe gets to be thrashed by the 'top guy', rather than the 'top list', reducing the perennial cry to nerf the top guy's list.


That said I'd be very happy if we did start nerfing players - I can think of a few who I'd happily see allowed to only field a thousand points of world eaters in every game - though even then I'd probably still lose!

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Which Armies are 'overpowered' - And how to counter them
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:52 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 6:42 am
Posts: 526
Location: Birchip, Australia
So its not the list. Its defs the players?

_________________
I have 4 laptops in this room and cannot play a pixel pushing tabletop simulator on any of them.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 185 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 ... 13  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

cron

Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net