Long time 40k player here, only very recently discovered how much fun Epic is. A friend sold me a Space Marine army, so that’s what I’m learning with. There is still a lot I need to learn about the game, and I am forming up marine tactics in my head, but I would appreciate input from experienced players.

I finally played my first, non-coached game of Epic with Space Marines last week and was beaten (of course), but I did well enough that I didn’t get my ass handed to me. Now that I’ve played a full game myself, though, I’ve got some questions about playing the Marines.

Since it was my first 3000-point game, my opponent and I agreed to not use air power but I want to start including it. There are many proponents of using the Marines as a quick-strike army and believe that the force is really limited when reduced to ground-pounding. Here is one example of an air attack:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/02/ ... above.html

I am in no position to argue, but I do question the logic of this tactic. It seems to me that in a 3000 point army, saving 1450 points to come out on turn 3 and grabbing the Blitz objective is kind of a extreme. That would allow whatever meager ground forces the marines do have on the board initially to get pounded to rubble during the first two turns. I do really, really like the idea of swooping in with a thunderhawk and delivering a strike team, but does anyone have any suggestions on how to perform the above tactic (or something similar) at a more reasonable points cost?

Similarly, I also like the idea of using drop pods to deliver forces, but I have seen nothing online detailing good drop pod strategy. If you have to pre-plan what turn the pods come in on and where they will touch down, doesn’t that limit their overall effectiveness? With teleporting terminators you know exactly where and when they enter the battlefield, but drop pods are much more of a crap shoot as to effectiveness (there may be nothing worth going after where they land). In addition, if the marine player has more than one drop pod there is no way he can retain the initiative to activate all the dropped forces, and they will always end up enduring a round of fire before they are able to do anything. Sitting ducks? (Again, I really have no experience to back up these thoughts, they are just my initial impressions)

(As an aside - it states in the Epic rules that drop pods scatter 2d6 when they land, and suggests using 40k scatter dice. The 40k scatter dice have two 'dead on' rolls that result in no scatter, but the Epic rules do not explicitly state that scattering in Epic is the same as 40k, so doesn't that mean that in Epic the pods will ALWAYS scatter?)

I do not currently own any Dreadnaughts but plan on getting some. There seems to be a lot of difference of opinion as to the value of Dreadnaughts on the table, though, and who they should go with. If you put them with terminators, then the terminators can’t teleport. If you put them with tactical marines, then it subjects them to AT fire and limits their maneuverability. If you put them with devastators, then it will limit ability to move just like tactical marines, and since devastators are initially a smaller unit than tactical marines the dread will break more easily. I suppose I can understand the argument that adding a dreadnaught makes the unit vulnerable to AT fire, but since the unit has rhinos aren’t they subject to AT fire already? What are popular thoughts here on usefulness of dreadnaughts and where to put them?

I also don’t have any scouts, and am having a hard time understanding what real value they are. Can anyone clearly explain what they are used for and why I should get them?

Where do characters work best for marines? In my first game the only character I took was a Supreme Commander to allow the reroll (I attached him to a tactical unit of marines, and the whole unit ended up getting killed and giving my opponent BTS objective). It seemed to me that characters can make units get really expensive really fast, just wondering how many I really need and what unit is able to utilize them best.

In addition, if any players out there have good tactics similar to the “Death From Above” link listed above, that would be appreciated.

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Welcome to the boards. I'll let better marine players talk tactics as I'm rubbish with them.

Hi. Welcome to Epic. Two points easily addressed ...



You can give podding formations a Commander upgrade that allows you to retain with three units in a combined engage. Not that enduring a round of fire's necessarily an issue.




Most iterations of the 40k scatter dice have a little arrow on the hit sides which you use when you roll them. There's no 1/3 chance of not scattering in Epic.

The author of the BOLS article has made a mistake in how assaults are decided.


The total number of units are not added to the combat resolution roll off,sides get a bonus of +1 or +2 if they out number or double outnumber their opponent.

Indeed I think Groov3r was just learning the rules when he wrote that article, so mistakes aren't unexpected.

I'll drop by this evening to answer any questions that aren't answered by someone else before then.

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Quick general comments:

Scouts: big ZOC, ability to cover lots of territory because of their relaxed coherency rules. Particularly useful in other armies to form an ablative shield against clipping assaults. For Marines probably most useful to hold territory while waiting for the airmobile forces to come in.

Characters: Inspiring is a big deal in assaults -- the +1 is as good as outnumbering the formation.

For drop armies, I tend to go with a turn 1 drop, otherwise you're letting your opponent get the chance to get into cover/put a lot of stuff on overwatch. When I was using them I found I needed the drop zones relatively close to one another (and in cover) for the Marines to have any hope of surviving until turn 3. If you can, go with corner deployment as you limit your opponent's deployment area and options. And yes, drops always scatter 2d6cm, after you move them anywhere you want within 15cm of your droop coordinate.

For T-hawks, remember you only need to buy a Strike Cruiser if you want to deliver them via Planetfall. They can enter the board as aircraft all on their own. One loaded with some Assault Marines and a Chaplain (425 points) makes for a decent Assault formation with great range, provided the target is prepped and hopefully in support range of some other formation of yours. You could also add a Devastator detachment in there, and assuming you can get all the Assault Marines in base to base you're looking at 8 3+, 2 4+ and a 3+ MW attack.

For dreads, I tend to use them with drop/T-hawk landed formations. Ya, the formation is vulnerable to AT but you get to but 2 marines in base-to-base with it for concealment. They're all right otherwise, I usually just use them to bump me up to 3k when I have some free points.

Scouts (Land Speeders too) are amazing units. To wit... At NEAT, I used speeders and scouts to tie up a Regimental HQ for two turns. I put a BM on the HQ and kept it within my ZoC. It ended up failing two activations (one with a re-roll) and had to use its activation to move out of my ZoC, so pretty much did nothing for 2/3s of the game. Also, I managed to pen the HQ and some Vultures in thanks to their 20cm coherency and 10cm ZoC. This kept them from making it onto my half of the board and taking an objective. That right there helped me win the game, and all for 425 points.

Other uses would be screening more expensive units from assaults/teleports, funneling assaults/limiting the number of units that can counter-charge an assaulting formation, and terrorizing IG commanders when you take a Sniper.

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Dave has practiced this a lot -- I tend to forget it while groaning about his dice, but I've been on the receiving end of his scout-tangle on a couple occasions (actually every time I've played against him).

Quite right (I'd recommend taking a look at some tournament army lists). A Marine list without an Air Assault component is generally considered much harder to win with.



But the Dreadnoughts seriously slow them down. The units with tanks are slowed by them, the units without are targetable by AT. They don't really fit anywhere. An all-Dreadnought formation was proposed a while back, but people are understandably reluctant to mess with one of the 100% official lists.



The general consensus, as far as I can see, can be summed up in one word: don't. With the possible exception of being attached to an air assaulting formation (especially Tacticals).

Marines can be a tricky list (on several levels). The question of whether they're underpowered or overpowered, a narrowly focused list with one or two practical applications or a broad one with a lot of options...well, there's almost as many opinions as there are players.

There's also a lot of alternate lists kicking around which you might want to take a look at when you're a little more familiar with the game. Some of them really change the way things work.

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Dreadnoughts are generally seen as a drop pod force multiplier. They don't slow the formation down, provide additional FF/CC support for the initial attack, then as they are AV 2 infantry units can claim cover by standing next to it.

Dreads go quite well with drop podding devastators. They add firepower and numbers as well as cover on the initial drop.

Drop pods are quite a cool little marine tool. They're a bit harder to get to work and require some forward thinking but can give spectacular results. You have to look at the terrain and the objectives and anticipate where your enemy is going to be on the turn you choose to strike. This does become easier with a little practice.

Drop pods have several advantages.

1) Extreme mobility - nothing and no-one is safe. Anywhere.
2) Good value for money - Drop pods themselves cost nothing. So for the cost of a 200 pts strike cruiser, in the turn it activates, you get a bombardment and then to place however many fms you're deploying by drop pod. These drop pods get to shoot at anything in a 15cm radius of where they land - meaning that with a single activation you have potentially: shot up several fms spreading multiple blast markers, automatically prepped any engagements you initiate with your retain move, made enemy fms harder to activate by 1/6 and are occupying positions beneficial to yourself.
3) Avoids AA. As the title really. You can go into an engagement without having to suffer the -1 or -2 modifiers on your resolution for having blast markers because you came under AA fire on the way in and you don't have to run the risk of being shot down.

The main problems that I've seen with drop pods and drops in general is that it leaves the troops on the ground exposed and once they've dropped, relatively slow. There are ways around this but they can be quite expensive and a bit extreme. For e.g. I'm currently running a Black Templar list that utilises a planet falling landing craft with 2 tactical fms, each with 2 x Land raider crusaders. This provides a number of advatages, The tacticals are mobile, even after the drop, their engagement power is boosted, no BMs and no risk of coming under AA fire, it provides an Island of strength (Anyone who wants to tangle with that drop is going to get smacked around in return), rather than exposed and vulnerable troops and also increases my practical activation count (If I air assaulted with the landing craft, then all 3 fms will count as having activated. Wheras, with the drop I'm in position and still have 3 activations - the LC and tacticals x2 - to do with as I wish). This is kind of an extreme example though and is something that the Black Templar list sort of forces on you to be effective. "Normal" marines have a few more options.

I'll give you an examples of combining drop pods with Air assaults and their usefulness:

1) Upon inspecting the board for terrain, you spot a nice bottleneck that you anticipate the enemy will be forced to move/deploy into and you pick your board corner/edge appropriately. You deploy your objectives to encourage the enemy to move towards/ start near this spot and then you plan your bombardment/drops. A strong garrison, is set up on overwatch by your opponent. It's your turn and you activate the strike cruiser. The bombarment goes first and has been set to target and saturate the area nearby for any enemy troops that may be in a position to lend aid to or extract vengence for the target garrison. Then the 2 devastator squads you elected to drop pod hit the target objective/garrison. The deathwinds do their magic and the target fm now has at least 2 blast markers and likely some casualties. The garrison fires overwatch at your devs but has a number suppressed and dead and the fire is paltry. You retain and fly a thunderhawk full of marines to engage the enemy fm. The devastator fms provide supporting fire and you take the objective. You now have 1 objective and your troops have formed a position of strength, with mutual support - that can't be picked off piecemeal. If the enemy wants that objective back he's going to have to tangle with some heavy firepower/engagement power. Any other troops in the area should have felt some effect from the bombardment and you still have your 2 devastator fms to activate during the turn. Nice.

As you can see from the example above, a lot of the trick is reliant on being able to anticiapte the enemy and to get them to do what you want. It's quite hard to do and you can have disaster strike if he/she does the unexpected. This is perhaps the reason drop podding is not massively prolific but it is fun and certainly something to try. If you find that you do have a talent for it, then it'll serve you well in games. A lot of the skill comes from experience. Knowing the game and what your opponent's units are capable of and not capable of. It helps you to anticipate and to force difficult choices on your opponent when setting up objectives and planning your drops.

The great thing about marines is that they are so flexible and have a lot of options and flexibility, so if podding is not for you, there's plenty of other good stuff. I will say though, when/if you do try drop pod deployment, don't get too carried away. Marines are not a blunt hammer you can drop into the middle of an enemy battle line turn 1 and club things to death with. Their fms are too small, their nos too few. What you should be aiming to do is to pick on parts of your opponent's army with overwhelming force, smashing that part up with as little damage as possible to yourself and without leaving yourself too open to counter attack afterwards. You should be aiming to end up in positions where your opponent is going to have to come to you, but on terms that are most favourable to you. Marines can do this pretty well with the sheer amount of flexibility and mobility available to them through things like, landspeeders, landing craft, thunderhawks and drop pods.

Hope you find my thoughts, helpful.

Stromzilla - thank you, that was very helpful.

I know that a strike cruiser will cost 200 points, but I did not realize that drop pods themselves cost nothing. I also didn't think about the fact that you get to drop an orbital bombardment right before the pods land, then do another Deathwind attack as they land....brutal. Drop podding in now seems like an amazingly good tactic, can't wait to try it (of course, I need to get down to my store and order the pods!)

I did not know that there were LR Crusaders for Epic. Are they exclusively for the Black Templars?

Thanks for the advice on the Dreadnaughts. I will still order some and use them, but I think I'll limit them to when I use drop pods. Having them walk onto the battlefield from the edge would slow things down too much for whatever unit they are attached to. When they do drop in, do you have any preferences as to which weapon combo works better?

I still don't quite see the value of units like scouts and land speeders. I do understand using scouts to spread out, and with their wide ZoC denying the opponent room to teleport in on. Still don't see how they tie opponents up, when all the opponent has to do it move out of their ZoC, then can do whatever they want. Dave, I understand firing on a unit just to keep blast markers on them and making activation 1/6th more difficult, but how were you able to tie up an HQ unit that long. What am I missing?

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Scouts have a 10cm zone of control (ZOC) unlike a normal units 5cm. They can 'place' this over an enemy formation without entering its zone of control. When the enemy formation activates its has 2 choices, move out of the scouts ZOC or engage them. So they can't sustain fire. If they fail the activation roll then they MUST use the move option of the hold action.

What Mephiston said. If you keep the enemy in your ZoC and make it more difficult for him to activate they're a real pain in the ass. They're best at disrupting your opponents plans, not his formations.

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Dave

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OK, now THAT makes sense!

So suppose my opponent has an activation of 2+, has at least one blast marker, and is with my scouts' zone of control.... I know that having blast markers makes activation one more difficult, but does that fact that they are within the scouts' ZoC make it more difficult still?

Another question that comes to mind is about Titans. Do guys thinks that Titans are necessary for Space Marines? I'm really not considering getting any, and the only war engines I would have would be the Thunderhawks. Fair enough?

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