Hi Everyone.

Here is the situation:

Unit is supporting a combat. The combat is a draw. The enemy uses the countercharge to engage the supporting unit thereby including them as part of the combat. Does the unit that has now become the unwilling participant also get a countercharge move into the enemy as they are now part of the combat?

Thank you in advance.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

The rule book only mentions that the defending formation (the one who had an engagement action taken against them) gets to counter charge so I'd say no.
R>

_________________
MoK's Painting Blog
Now Showing:
Mok's Modular Modern Messy Guard Army

Is the supporting formation the attackers or defenders?

If attackers no, as the attacker counter charges first, yes if defenders.

But do they not themselves then become the defenders?

A rose by any other name.....

Just throwing it out there    

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

Sorry edited my response so frogbears response looks odd!

I don't believe it's covered in the rules, but it's certainly fair and reasonable to allow them a counter-charge.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Can you countercharge a countercharge?

It's an anomaly of combats that go 2 round of more. The attacker side gets to "countercharge" before the defender does.

Meph's got it right, imho.

In the second round, the Engaging formation countercharges first.  If the Engaging formation "draws in" a second target formation with its move, then the second target formation would be considered part of the target formation when it countercharges.

OTOH, if the target formation countercharges and draws in a new formation, it would not get to counter charge.  The engaging side already countercharged.  Even though it's now considered part of the engaging formation, no move would be taken.

===

By the way, this causes all manner of weirdness based on formation coherency rules.  Even though the original and drawn in formations are now considered a single target and are technically supposed to maintain coherency, that's clearly going to be impossible in many cases.  Wiping out a support formation simply because they were drawn in but cannot reach coherency in a single countercharge move is clearly against the spirit of the rules.  IMHO, they should try to maintain or reduce the distance ("linking up" with the other formation) but as long as they don't directly increase the distance I don't think it's fair to impose a penalty.

_________________
Neal

I think a note that unit coherency should be suspended during the assault but must be met after all withdrawal and consolidation moves.

May lead to even more gamey situations though.

The thing is the assault rules, including the intermingling and Commander rules, specifically state that coherency applies.  Intermingling and Commander both go further and state that the multi-formation groups have to maintain coherency with each other.

_________________
Neal

You dont have to counter charge.

_________________
Epic UK - Improving and Enhancing Epic Gaming in the UK
[url]http://epic-uk.co.uk/wp[/url]

Right, move along then, nothing to see here