4-1 is the most common mix. Character should probably be on a Bike unit. No LV vulnerability and better assault values for the character's MW attacks.

I tend to go with 3-2 to compensate for the loss of a unit. I usually put chaplains on bikes for the reasons that Neal listed.

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Dave

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Squats 2019-10-17

Sorry - what is LV vulnerability?

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That's not a moon....it's a space station....

Having a light vehicle in the formation means the formation can be hurt by AT fire. A formation of just bikes can't be hurt by AT fire, but throw an attack bike in there and it can.

Put another way....................

LVs can be hit by either AT or AP fire put an LV in a formation made up of all Infantry types and the LVs can be picked out of the formation by AT fire. Put them in a formation of all AV types and they can be picked out by AP fire.

The reverse of this is to use them as a meat shield, Ork Buggies for example, to protect something more deadly behind them. Continuing on the Buggy example Ork Kults of Speed, and many of my local friends do this, field a handful of Buggies in their KOS and a host of Bikes. The player is not worried about losing the Buggies just the bikes. Often the formation is so large the handfull of BMs they may aquire becasue of the extra exposure, by the LVs being in the formation, is almost meaningless.

Jaldon

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I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC

I may have missed this earlier in the thread, but I see little use for a librarian over any of the other characters.
One of their MW's is going to waste and they are just leaders character wise, compared to inspiring chaplains or commander captains who both provide additional utility.

Can anyone suggest a good use for them? They just feel the worst character option for marines, and I acquired a couple so was wondering how/if people use them

Silvershot: Librarians are a FAR better choice than captains. I think I can count on one hand how many captains I've EVER seen used. Librarians are brilliant in Devestators, as a 3+MW FF attack is awesome. FF ability beats CC any day, as it's easier to pull off and less risky in return. If another character can't get into CC their MW attack is wasted, but the Librarian always gets one.

Chaplains are still a better choice in most circumstances, but librarians are pretty good too.

Captains are pretty useless because the Commander rule hardly ever comes up (far less than the FF bonus of the Librarian or the Inspiring of the Chaplain certainly). Not to mention that just about all Marine armies will have a Supreme Commander who already has all of the Captain's abilities.

I've not played many games, only about 6, but I've used a captain in most and I've used the commander ability every time. I've also seen plenty of close combat where characters can get in. Maybe its just good/bad planning on our parts as players though I do see your point about risk (since my dice always decide that my characters die)

The Librarian is the most useful(all-rounder) of the characters, all the others only have abilities that affect their own action (SC and Capt. to drag other formations along in an assault and Chaplain for the +1 bonus in the roll off).
A well used Librarian (does take some practice to use well) can affect multiple engage actions per turn, not just their own.
My preferred use is in with Terminators (pick the right target and it should be destroyed before a combat resolution roll is needed, a Chaplain would be wasted in this situation).
Then (the part that needs practice and timing) if positioned well they could support other assaults with 4x3+ and 1xMW 3+ FF attacks.


I've included one in almost every Marine Army I've used at UK tournaments in the past 2 years and I've not done too bad.

That makes a lot of sense, thanks.
Does sound a lot more useful now!

Would general consensus be that they belong (primarily) in termies/devastator?

It is tactics Dependant. As they have a MMCC attack they do well in bikes with the FF4+ and a strongly tactical based army. But termies are probably best. Even devs often need a chaplain to win an assault, unlike the termies.

That's where they get the best (MW3+) attack along with the formations normal FF attacks.

Though they are often seen in Land Speeders too, excellent FF support formation 6xMW5+ (after moving into support range and laying at least a BM with their normal MW attacks).

I agree with Chris (I think I got his meaning correct) and would like to expand on it a bit. Oh no Jaldon is going to go into one of his two page tactical explinations

Basically what kind of tactics you prefer, and the kind of army orgainization you prefer to use with those tactics, will determine which commander types will serve you best.

Captains work well in bike formations where the player likes to perform FF snip attacks on much larger formations. Basically one Bike Formation has a Captain and the other bike formation it is tied to has a Librarian. The extra kills possible often make up for the +1 to resolution the Chaplin would bring. Those that prefer a more flexible combinaton will use a Chaplin instead.

Epic-A's possible tactical combinations are sometimes very subtle, and their effective use player dependent. Using the Librarian again, and in a Bike Formation. The Bikes can move into assault CC, nothing says the bike with the Librarian has to move into contact, so he stays back instead. Sometimes players get so wrapped up in the moment that they fail to see these more subtle uses. Like it is assault CC so everybody that can should get into base to base contact, when in fact they don't have to.

There are many, many, many more.

Cheers All
Jaldon

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I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC

Personally, I'm not all that keen on Librarian Termies. I typically find that I end up using Termies as a hammer (which you want CC), followed by a holding maneuver. They don't usually use a lot of FF when I play them like that.

I typically use Librarians mostly in Speeder and Bike formations. They are fast so they are easy to position to support an assault, providing the most MWFF attacks overall.

The FF5+ on Speeders isn't all that great, but the formation is a good tool for attacking high-armor formations that Marines sometimes have trouble with. Even at lower to-hit numbers, the extra attack on a dedicated MW formation is nice.

Bikes, with FF4+/CC3+, are good all-rounders, able to use the MW assault attacks to good effect in any situation.

I will use a Librarian in Devs if I'm planning to air assault with them but if I field them on the ground I am usually planning ranged fire support, so Librarians don't work all that well for me in that case.

I have also used Librarians in Vindicators. If you use armor in a close support role, the high FF value helps the Librarian pay off. It's not my favorite but it is an option.

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I'm going to make this topic sticky for now, but I'd really like to see someone take on the job of consolidating the major suggestions into a single post for a sort of master SM tactics thread.

OK, next issue -- Fighting Titans

When I played a multi-player game recently with my Titan-heavy team mate, I asked him what my marines could do when going up against my opponent's imperial titans and his advice was to basically avoid them. So for that game I did and just let his titans go up against enemy titans
But seriously, there must some good ways for space marines to combat titans. Does shooting at them with absolutely any weapon cause a blast marker? Can tacticals or devastators hurt them badly? Terminators must be able to handle them, I'm thinking? What about macro weapon attacks? Air attacks?

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That's not a moon....it's a space station....