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How to use bombers in 3000pt (competitive) tournament game?

 Post subject: Re: How to use bombers in 3000pt (competitive) tournament ga
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:04 am 
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The Epic-UK tournament packs make no change to the Air rules as they are in the book. Passive flak is part of the game so part of tournament play.


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 Post subject: Re: How to use bombers in 3000pt (competitive) tournament ga
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:02 am 
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Rug wrote:
If an aircraft ends its approach move within the AA of another aircraft it can be shot at...

Only if that aircraft is carrying out an interception mission. If if is ground attacking it can't be shot at by airborne AA.

EUK (And NetEA) Marauder Destroyers are good IMO... It's the standard (EUK) Marauders that are gash.

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 Post subject: Re: How to use bombers in 3000pt (competitive) tournament ga
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:09 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Rug wrote:
If an aircraft ends its approach move within the AA of another aircraft it can be shot at...

Only if that aircraft is carrying out an interception mission. If if is ground attacking it can't be shot at by airborne AA


If you are talking about NetEA, it was clarified by Neal that AA from aircraft effects flyers passing through them, even if they are not Intercepting.

I believe that is correct - ?

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 Post subject: Re: How to use bombers in 3000pt (competitive) tournament ga
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:25 am 
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You have to end your movement in range/arc, but it doesn't matter what orders you are on, IIRC.


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 Post subject: Re: How to use bombers in 3000pt (competitive) tournament ga
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:33 am 
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Mephiston wrote:
You have to end your movement in range/arc, but it doesn't matter what orders you are on, IIRC.

Rules say "interceptors". There was some debate as to whether that meant all interceptors or only ones that are directly intercepting the defending aircraft, and it was ruled that it was "all", IIRC. IIRC it was also ruled that CAP was a sub type of interception.

But you cannot AA at ground attackers in the same way AFAIK as the rules do not allow it.

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 Post subject: Re: How to use bombers in 3000pt (competitive) tournament ga
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:20 pm 
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Here is Nealhunts latest stab at a FAQ for the umbrella flak

Quote:
4.2.4
Q: The rules state "Note that aircraft carrying out a ground attack mission that are armed
with AA weapons may shoot at enemy interceptors that fall within the AA weapon’s fire arc." This sounds as if only aircraft on ground attack missions may use their flak attacks. Also, it seems to imply that the ground attack formation can only fire at interceptors targeting that formation. Can aircraft on ground attack missions fire at interceptors other than those attacking it? For example, if Bomber Flight 1 ends in the AA arc of Bomber Flight 2 and is intercepted by enemy fighters, can Bomber Flight 2 fire, even though it is not the target of the interceptors? Can aircraft on missions other than ground attack make flak attacks at all?
A: Yes to all the questions. If aircraft end their approach move within range and fire arc of AA weapons, the enemy get flak attacks regardless of the missions of any of the aircraft.

The definitive statement of how flak attacks work is in the first sentence, "[flak attacks may] shoot immediately after an enemy aircraft formation makes an approach move but before it makes its attack." The sentence quoted is explanatory, intended to point out a particular situation that might not be immediately obvious (that's why it begins with "Note..."). It is not intended to create an additional restrictions on the basic flak attack mechanic.

As a side note, this has been a common point of contention. This is the NetEA answer and it is the ruling used by the Epic UK tournament organizers. Some groups house rule aircraft versus aircraft flak attacks differently.


So if you end your approach move in range/arc of a flyer's flak then you will get shot, regardless of target and mission. This is how I rule when asked at tournaments.


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 Post subject: Re: How to use bombers in 3000pt (competitive) tournament ga
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:23 pm 
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Huh, re-reading the rule Neal's explanation does make sense.

Still doesn't make Marauders worth taking @250pts with 2BP each, mind you. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: How to use bombers in 3000pt (competitive) tournament ga
PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:05 am 
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It is clunky, and quite frankly does not even attempt to simulate the continuous nature of air-movement.

BUT, using this interpretation does mean that fighters can 'escort' bombers by moving first and providing an AA 'umbrella' for the bombers to use, in turn making the bombers slightly more resilient and usefull. This is especially true if the fighters are angled to shoot iin different directions at the end of their move. (Don't forget that the aircraft do not need to fly the same route or stay coherent during the move; they only need to be coherent at the end of their move)

Indeed, this does raise an intruiging question; whether the Fighters (nominated to carry out a ground-assault) actually need to attack something at the end of their movement (though that is a question for another thread)?!


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 Post subject: Re: How to use bombers in 3000pt (competitive) tournament ga
PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:18 am 
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Quote:
Indeed, this does raise an intruiging question; whether the Fighters (nominated to carry out a ground-assault) actually need to attack something at the end of their movement (though that is a question for another thread)?!

Feel free to open a thread, though I suspect the answer, like with a ground formation that is issued a sustained fire order when there is nothing in range, is No, your shots don't actually have to go anywhere.

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 Post subject: Re: How to use bombers in 3000pt (competitive) tournament ga
PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:43 pm 
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Hmmm, well that changes things slightly (I've never encountered that FAQ entry about aircraft passive AA) - so a potential tactic is to take a formation of fighters and bombers.
Send the fighters in first, arranged facing away from the intended target (effectively covering the bombers rear arc).
Then, send in the bombers, stopping on top of the fighters to give a reasonable AA defensive cover.

With a pair of Thunderbolts (150pt) protecting a pair of Marauders (250pt) - might be worth a try [I still think CAP-ing a CAP would be a tidier solution as a house rule, but lets work with what we've got for the tournaments].
Hmm, so now we're spending 400pt to attack one formation (TBs probably won't be able to shoot the target, might get lucky with another target in range), so we really need to do some effective damage - also hoping to draw an opponents fighters in as well, aiming to hurt them. Of course, picking the target is the key. Problem if the target activates and moves between the fighters and bombers (unless we retain of course).

Well, it's tricky to pull off - but I'll give it a go.


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 Post subject: Re: How to use bombers in 3000pt (competitive) tournament ga
PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:22 pm 
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WEll, I have somewhat recovered from my appendix being removed so...

Marauders are pants for several reasons. The biggest one for me is the massive drop in firepower when one gets shot down. If you get intercepted or suffer a lucky flak hit you have a 50% chance of going down. When this happens first off you will be activating at a minimum next turn on a 4+. But worse than that you have gone from 2 templates at AP4+/AT5+ to hit to one template at Ap5+/AT6+. Thats dire. Then you have the overall firepower which is inferior to ground based artillery as they sustain. Off course those negative to activate are poor as well. For marines as has been pointed out the thunderhawk is a far better bomber for less cost and greater survivability. For guard well you have arty which to be fair never seems as good as it should be (king of the battlefield and all that).

250 with 3bp each would be a bit better as you no longer have the drastic firepower drop and the boost of 1bm is minimal. Also the damn thing officially has a far bigger bomb load than a comparable arty barrage so I've no problem with it carrying more bombs. However even at 3bp 250 it would still be second fiddle to thunderhawks, warhounds and the like, but thats epic. Currently I rejoice when I see the enemy has brought them along and thats unlikely to change much with any sort of small boost.


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 Post subject: Re: How to use bombers in 3000pt (competitive) tournament ga
PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:30 pm 
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WEll, I have somewhat recovered from my appendix being removed so...

Yipes, sounds like you haven't had the best christmas!
Glad you're ok.

What do you think of the War Engine Marauder that we used in the Death Korps list?
Twin lascannon on the nose (45cm), 2x AA5+ (15cm), 3BP(15cm), 5+ armour, 2dc, 150pts for a formation of 1 Bomber.

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 Post subject: Re: How to use bombers in 3000pt (competitive) tournament ga
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:07 pm 
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What does everyone think about Firelords in the LaTD list? I like bringing 2 of them at 3k, and they tend to do fairly well. The weapons load out and 4+/6+ armor make them very efficient for a bomber.


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 Post subject: Re: How to use bombers in 3000pt (competitive) tournament ga
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:36 pm 
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Mephiston wrote:
Here is Nealhunts latest stab at a FAQ for the umbrella flak

Quote:
4.2.4
Q: The rules state "Note that aircraft carrying out a ground attack mission that are armed
with AA weapons may shoot at enemy interceptors that fall within the AA weapon’s fire arc." This sounds as if only aircraft on ground attack missions may use their flak attacks. Also, it seems to imply that the ground attack formation can only fire at interceptors targeting that formation. Can aircraft on ground attack missions fire at interceptors other than those attacking it? For example, if Bomber Flight 1 ends in the AA arc of Bomber Flight 2 and is intercepted by enemy fighters, can Bomber Flight 2 fire, even though it is not the target of the interceptors? Can aircraft on missions other than ground attack make flak attacks at all?
A: Yes to all the questions. If aircraft end their approach move within range and fire arc of AA weapons, the enemy get flak attacks regardless of the missions of any of the aircraft.

The definitive statement of how flak attacks work is in the first sentence, "[flak attacks may] shoot immediately after an enemy aircraft formation makes an approach move but before it makes its attack." The sentence quoted is explanatory, intended to point out a particular situation that might not be immediately obvious (that's why it begins with "Note..."). It is not intended to create an additional restrictions on the basic flak attack mechanic.

As a side note, this has been a common point of contention. This is the NetEA answer and it is the ruling used by the Epic UK tournament organizers. Some groups house rule aircraft versus aircraft flak attacks differently.


So if you end your approach move in range/arc of a flyer's flak then you will get shot, regardless of target and mission. This is how I rule when asked at tournaments.



I was told that AA is fired at the aircraft after it has completed all it's movement, but before it fires, and that any AA cover that it flew through at any point in it's movement can shoot. So you wouldn't actually have to end your approach move in range/arc of a flyer's flak, just fly through it aat some point??


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