dropping the Void spinner range to 45cm would take it out of contention for most people I think - the whole point of the void spinner is to be able to attack and prep fms in the enemy's deployment zone. I don't see the Void spinner as particularly over powered, just that the scorpion (and to a lesser extent the cobra) are underpowered.

I don't see why so much. Yes thats the main reason they are taken over nightspinners - but the other eldar armies don't get it. Its actually the defining difference between biel tan and the rest!

Why not look at the 75 points being for the increased survivability through WE and armour save?

If its not quite worth all that could give it a secondary weapon system, but I still think its an interesting choice between the two.

I'm all for raising the Scorpion from 2x to 3x...

It seems that would give the Eldar player more of an option for TK than relying solely on the Cobra or the Phantom/Warlock to do the job. I'd rather have more flexible options.

That and the Scorpion looks THAT much cooler anyway.

Scorpions increase of 3x 'pulse' weapons instead of 2x would be a significant increase, though it would return them to the number of shots usually achieved under the original rules. Definitely worth trying.

Void Spinner range dropping to 45cm would cripple them as others suggest. It would also cripple the army to some extent by removing one of the few deep-strike capabilities which in turn impacts army strategies - Storm Serpents become less viable against IG (Death Strikes) for example.

Both units also improve as the number used increases and they are able to concentrate fire against targets. 3x Void Spinners can seriously disrupt the enemy as would 3x Scorpions. However, as others note their value significantly decreases when used as pairs or triplets.

So, rather than reducing the range of the Void Spinners, perhaps some limit on their numbers?

I don't see that a restriction is warranted - you never see more than 2 void spinners even at 4k. It can't really be said that they dominate the game but are just effective and are the only option the eldar have for that role. At the moment the choice is between falcons+scorpions for their role and falcons are superior. If you want to see more scorpions address thier balance against the alternative option to them - falcons

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I don't see a need for limits as spamming of the SHT's has never been a particular problem AFAIK.

I do like the idea of giving Scorpions 3x shots.

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I'm not against giving the scorpion 3 shots, but maybe make it 3 x MW3+ instead of 2 x MW2+.

That is less of an improvement from a mathematical POV, but it is a big psychological boost.

that's not a bad idea actually as it will force some interesting tactical changes - sustaining would be lethal (but unlikely, due to the need to hug cover) whereas a doubling hit'n'run would be about the same as before. It would also make them more flexible against soft, high value targets, like Marines.

A playtesting thread has been started in the Eldar forums here.

Please give both suggestions a whirl!

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In pretty much any situation except popcorn volleys, the Scorpion survives better. AT to kill and MW to kill are in the same range of raw numbers but the WE benefits still favor the Scorpion. Range and smaller profile make it easier for the Scorpion to use hit-and-run or pop-up ability to remain behind cover, further increasing effective durability. The Scorpion is more resistant to barrages, the bane of Eldar, than a Falcon troupe. In the rare instance that you might actually Marshall with them, the Scorpion can still fire with decent effect.

Ballpark results from a small volley:

1 hit - 67% chance the Falcons are reduced to below half firepower, 7% chance to kill the Scorpion, with no chance to suppress.

2 hits - 90% chance the Falcons are reduced by at least 60% firepower, 45% chance they are broken outright. 15% chance to kill the Scorpion, 20% chance to suppress.

3 hits - 90% chance the Falcons will break. 20% chance to kill the Scorpion, 50% chance to suppress.

The Scorpion comes out with less of an edge at 2 volleys due to the fixed BM and being only DC3, but it's still better.

Part of it is the Void Spinner is fantastic. Far better than nightspinners unless you have an eldar artillery army and nigh compulsory. Really they should either be a heavily armored alternative to nightspinners or a weaker attack. But really currently its just no contest, indeed i don't think any race has artillery to match them.

But as Steve points out, you would still go for the voids. The Scorps even with all shooting being equal to falcons lose out in AA stakes. Tourney players - at least in the UK - have increasing I think become happy to have fragile hard hitting power and try and outmaneuver the opponent than the more forgiving but less hard hitting options. As we are all cut throats playing to win the gamble is worth it! Though of course we all tend to higher activations as well, largely driven by the effect certain army builds have on others where they are out activated and die.

Threadjacking my own thread, but what would you think of 2BP on Voidspinners, T_R_C?

Thread hack



One problem that I have found with them is that in some of my lists I start to run out of point/activations and Night Spinners suddenly come into their own.

Hack off

I think you would still want at least 1, possibly still 2, at least at 4000 points and after that nightspinners are a bit more attractive. While it has the 120cm attack its still pretty essential, though 2bp would probably limit it to only being taken once in most lists.

Are these numbers based off 3 Scorpions or just 1 Scorpion vs Falcon Formation?