There were some agreed reductions, including 250pt formations and 50pts each as upgrades for Vindicators, however the army compendium has yet to be updated with them as Chroma's been away for a while.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I have managed to convert up some razorbacks (those old robots are good for something after all ) so I have replaced both vindicators with 4 lascannon razorbacks and moved the hunter from my supreme commanders formation to my predators. The other change that I have made is to swap 1 'speeder formation for a second bike formation as they look to be more useful.

Everything (bar the thunderhawk which I still need to get) is now undercoated, time to get painting

never ever ever ever ever (ever?) underestimate the usefulness of speeder fms. I've often thought of getting Dave to write a book on the 101 Really Bloody Annoying Ways to Use Landspeeders. The list is endless, honestly, and when you've faced an army list with 4 of the bleeding fms you get a grudging respect for them. For eg. breaking a speeder fm takes 3 kills on 4+ saves, afterwhich they invariably rally and come back to piss you off.

oh no, I'm not bitter

I could write a book about this too. My regular opponent plays his Space Marines Dark Angels style and usually has 3+ Land Speeder formations which are annoying as hell.

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We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

Just started playing epic and played my first game with marines.
Must say I'm loving the game, very cool.

Anyway, was hoping I could get some advice too:
(3650 pts, even if it is a strange one)

Thunderhawk (200)
Thunderhawk (200)
2 Warhounds (500)
Tactical fm, supreme commander, 4 razorback (probably heavy bolter), hunter (575, bts)
Tactical fm, 4 razorback, hunter (475)
Devastator fm (250) possible thawk occupants
Terminator fm (350) teleport or land raider
Land Raider fm (350)
Land speeder fm (200)
Land speeder fm (200)
Assault fm (175)
Assault fm (175)
Total points = 3650

Seems manoeuvrable enough and has plenty of firepower.

[Edit: using the NetEA list]

Welcome aboard, Silvershot.

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"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

I agree welcome aboard Silvershot

The army you have built is going to give most armies a run for their money in the 3,500 to 4,000 point range. Actually with the THs carrying the Assault Marines and the Termies on Teleport this army could give the Eldar and Tau fits

On the other side of the coin what looks like a lot of firepower, in this list, isn't when you go on to face horde armies like the LatD, Orks, and Nids. As Stalin said, "Quantity has its own quality." For example an Ork Big Warband is probably going to survive the total firepower that 1/3 of this army can put out. On top of that, without any Whirlwinds in the SM army you have built, the Ork player is going to be able to bunch up and get the support fire he needs to sluff off any of your assaults. In a 3,500 to 4,000 point Ork Army you are going to be facing three to four of these Big Warbands with not enough firepower to stop all of them, in a reasonable amount of turns.

Horde armies depend on boxing maneuverable armies in so they can get their hands on them and duff them up in assaults by turn 3-4. The Maneuverable armies have to be able to punch a hole in that line of horde troops, in turn two, to break out into the open and force a game of maneuver (The type of battle Horde armies cannot win). Again, on paper your list looks like it has a lot of firepower, but the truth is compared to Horde numbers it doesn't.

For example: Orks stink at FF assaults, but to take advantage of that weakness you are going to have to double/triple up the number of formations you can hurl at a single Ork Big Warband just to overcome their numbers in an assault FF. Your army contains only ONE commander capable of carrying out a combined assault (The Supreme Commander), this leaves the rest of the army trying to do it one formation at a time. That leaves too many formations in positions that allows the Orks to get their hands on them (CC assault which they do excell at).

My suggestion is to have at least one Whirlwind formation to force Horde Armies to spread out, and to include a captain, or two, to increase the number of combined assaults you can carry out.

Hope this helps and cheers

Thank you both for the welcome!

That is most interesting to know about the hordes. I had not really thought about that it seems. I was considering doing some chopping to put a chaplain in the assault marines, but your post makes a lot of sense, some commanders are probably needed.

Though to be fair, I've found it possible to launch a multiple FF/CC assault with one commander, though it did require retaining the initiative (but land speeders supporting assaulting termies is a nice combo)

Anyway, your advice is sound and I shall take it aboard.

Don't be wedded to the idea of using them both together. Feel free to just load assault marines - they are quite fragile anyway, so oft best going after very soft targets like artillery.

Many players load terminators into thunderhawks instead now, as they can teleport or air attack, the former meaning you use the thunderhawk like a bomber.


Vindicators are best in their own formation, or not at all. Use the points for other stuff.
The Supreme commander - I've stopped bothering, yes its good at critical times, but I instead prefer redundancy, I also haven't much use for the commander special ability.



I would always put the chaplain with these chaps instead of the assault marines.


Often a better load out for the thunderhawk than the assault marines!


Landspeeders are nifty. They are good at supporting attacks, but would you have two atttacks to support before one load of speeders gets blown away?


I see below they are in fact Annihilators (good!) and yes, putting the hunter with them is a good idea.

Overall I would try and shoehorn in a Warhound titan if you can, they really are excellent harassers.

So sticking with the above I would make the following changes

400 Tacticals, Razorback, hunter (BTS)
325 Tacticals, Razorback
250 Devastators
250 Bikes, Chaplain
200 Fast attack (bikes or speeders, whatever you prefer!)
200 Fast attack (bikes or speeders, whatever you prefer!)
400 Terminators, Chaplain
350 Predator Annihilators, Hunter
200 Thunderhawk
150 Thunderbolts
275 Warhound

First off I would remove one razorback from each tactical formation and get a couple of free rhinos. Then I would use the 50 points saved to field the warhounds as two separate titans, not a pack.

Then in terms of getting new models predator annihilators with a hunter are better value than land raiders. You have to hide a lot but its better AT firepower which is overwise hard to come by and more importantly has a hunter for AA.

Otherwise I would consider dropping the supreme commander for 2 chaplains which in practice make a bigger difference (I feel) for the terminators and either a bike or assault formation.

Those assault marines are best in the thunderhawk, the 15cm disembark is quite handy. However you are best not putting the devestators in with them as the mixed formation costs more and if its not suitable for CC attack and needs FF instead, why put the assault marines in there, or air attack it in the first place?

Heya Chris how ya doing my friend, well I hope!

I don't disagree with you on the Supreme Commander, I have played it both ways, but I do think sticking a Captain in there somewhere can be real handy. I cannot count the number of times their ability to put together a combined assault on a first activation has saved my bacon against horde armies. IMHO captains often pay for themselves somewhere in the course of a battle.

Otherwise I do agree with all you said Chris, and therefore second it (Like you really needed it LOL)

All the best my friend and cheers

Played a 3000 point game last night and got some good advice (and harsh lessons!)
So here's my revised 3650 vs guard

Devastator fm with 4 lascannon razorbacks
Assault fm
Assault fm with chaplain
Land speeder fm
Land speeder fm
Tactical fm with 3 heavy bolter razorbacks
Tactical fm
Terminator fm with commander
Warhound
Warhound
Thunderhawk
Thunderhawk
2 Thunderbolts
Whirlwind fm with hunter

Not sure if the hunter should go with the whirlwinds, or with the razorback tacticals (makes the tacticals BTS)

I've put Hunters in my Whirlwind formations but they need a good field of fire. This lets them use get a sustained fire +1 bonus every turn. Often I place the formation at or near my Blitz.

If it is a tactical formation it is going to spend too much time moving around and not using sustained fire. The idea here, as Hunters are pure support, is to put them where that get to do, what they do best, most often. A rule thumb that applies to all pure support formations/units.

War Engines are support formations in reality, and you will get the most out of them if they are up at the front directly supporting another formation. For example if your Warhounds are on the same ground as a tactical formation and tha ttactical formation is assaulted they get the 'free' FF support shots from those Warhounds, thus one is getting th emost out of those WEs.

Cheers