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Rule Querey - Stubborn & Broken

 Post subject: Rule Querey - Stubborn & Broken
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:46 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ Jan. 04 2010, 11:42 )

IMO they all get save. So, normally a formation which is broken and loses an assault all are wiped. With all unit in formation with stubborn would then translate to all having to take saves.

I'm assuming they make these saves after the Combat Result hackdowns?

The problem is that the wording on 1.12.8 doesn't currently allow for the hackdowns. Which leads to a potentially silly result.

Take the following situation.

A Stubborn formation (4+ save) is reduced to 2 units in an assault. The resolution has the opponents win by 6.
If you ignore hackdowns, a broken unit has a 75% chance of still existing (25% of no additional loss). An unbroken formation has only a ~23.4% chance (~1.6 of no additional loss).

So, that leads to, do you do the wipeout saves then hackdowns, or hackdowns then wipeouts? The latter gives a slightly higher survival rate if I've got my math correct, but not by any margin likely to be an issue.

Oh, and I'm a big fan of Relentless. Though I'll admit some bias, I co-opted Resolute for an army I'm working on because Stubborn was being used for this.  :oo:

Morgan Vening


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 Post subject: Rule Querey - Stubborn & Broken
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:28 am 
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Quote: (Morgan Vening @ Jan. 05 2010, 06:46 )

Oh, and I'm a big fan of Relentless.

Well this appears to have more votes so far, and honestly, I think it is a great word for the skill to represent either the hardiness or phychotic nature of both forces involved.

I am happy to move the special rule to this name.

Unless anything replaces it, Stubborn will be changed to Relentless for the World Eaters at least.

Thanks BlackLegion for the suggestion   :agree:




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 Post subject: Rule Querey - Stubborn & Broken
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:42 am 
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Quote: (frogbear @ Jan. 05 2010, 03:28 )

Unless anything replaces it, Stubborn will be changed to Relentless for the World Eaters at least.

Sorry to rain on the parade, but Relentless is already used in the Tyranid special rules for their bonus to engage and rallies.

And "relentless", to me, seems to connote ending pursuit/attack... but isn't this special ability supposed to represent the unit standing firm *against* an enemy attack?

I believe "indomitable" fits the bill.




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 Post subject: Rule Querey - Stubborn & Broken
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:03 am 
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Fanatical?

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 Post subject: Rule Querey - Stubborn & Broken
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:06 am 
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Quote: (Chroma @ Jan. 05 2010, 12:42 )

Sorry to rain on the parade, but Relentless is already used in the Tyranid special rules for their bonus to engage and rallies.

Maybe the WoE are part Tyranid?   :oo:

Point taken. Sorry to encroach.    :peace:

OK back to the drawing board...


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Fanatical?


Not bad. Not bad at all and less than 5 syllables!  :upside:

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 Post subject: Rule Querey - Stubborn & Broken
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:32 am 
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OK

Here are some which have been mentioned plus some others from searching dictionary.com

FANATICAL: motivated or characterized by an extreme, uncritical enthusiasm or zeal, as in religion or politics.

INTRACTABLE: not easily controlled or directed; not docile or manageable; stubborn; obstinate: an intractable disposition.

INDOMITABLE: that cannot be subdued or overcome, as persons, will, or courage; unconquerable.

UNBRIDLED: Unrestrained; uncontrolled

ARDENT: vehement; fierce

INTENSE: of an extreme kind; very great, as in strength, keenness, severity, or the like

TENACIOUS: holding fast; characterized by keeping a firm hold; pertinacious, persistent, stubborn, or obstinate

RESILIENT: recovering readily from illness, depression, adversity, or the like

STEADFAST: firm in purpose, resolution, faith, attachment, etc

DAUNTLESS: not to be daunted or intimidated; fearless; intrepid; bold

STALWART: firm, steadfast, or uncompromising

UNYIELDING: Not bending; inflexible


*************************************

FRENZY - This would suit the WoE yet unsure about other cults...

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 Post subject: Rule Querey - Stubborn & Broken
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:13 am 
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Quote: (Hena @ Jan. 05 2010, 15:55 )

I have admit that I like the word Indomitable.

Are we agreed or shall we give it the week?

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 Post subject: Rule Querey - Stubborn & Broken
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:49 pm 
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Well, just to mess things up, I like Tenacious

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 Post subject: Rule Querey - Stubborn & Broken
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:58 pm 
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Indomitable also implies an honourable course of action.

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 Post subject: Rule Querey - Stubborn & Broken
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:13 pm 
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Frenzy work best for me.


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 Post subject: Rule Querey - Stubborn & Broken
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:08 pm 
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Quote: (Honda @ Jan. 05 2010, 20:49 )

Well, just to mess things up, I like Tenacious


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 Post subject: Rule Querey - Stubborn & Broken
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:29 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ Jan. 05 2010, 06:32 )

Here are some which have been mentioned plus some others from searching dictionary.com

Okay, again, I think we're still putting the cart before the horse.  

What is this special ability supposed to represent?  In the Frogbear's document the "Stubborn" ability has this flavour text:

Quote: 

Khorne's followers are incensed with rage and the need to slay in his name. Under such adrenalin, such warriors have been known to ignore the battle around them.


And then it has a rule about getting saves vs hackdown/broken BM hits.  In my mind, these two aspects, flavour and rule, have nothing to do with each other.  One seems like an "attacking" special ability, like ignoring BMs in assaults, while the other is a "defending" ability.

A word like "frenzy", to me, denotes insane attacks... not a chance to survive being over-run by the enemy.

Work out what the ability is supposed to represent, write the flavour text describing this, and *then* think up a name.

Heck, it could even be a sub-rule of the "Blood Rage of Khorne" special rule, similar to the sub-rules in ATSKNF!

Example: World Eaters are some the most favoured servants of Khorne, taking glory in battle and staying in the fight even as their comrades fall around them.

All units designated as World Eaters may make their normal armour saves (including any re-rolls that may apply) against hackdown hits due to losing an assault or hits caused by suffering Blast Markers when broken. (Note that Stubborn units are still destroyed outright if they are within 15cm of enemy at the end of a Withdrawal move).




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 Post subject: Rule Querey - Stubborn & Broken
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:45 pm 
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I like Tenacious  :agree:

Going the ATSKNF route is ok because ATSKNF is an army wide special rule not a unit's special ability. The problemis: Not all World Eaters formation are made entirely out of Stubborn/Tenacious units.

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 Post subject: Rule Querey - Stubborn & Broken
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:13 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ Jan. 05 2010, 22:29 )

Okay, again, I think we're still putting the cart before the horse.  

What is this special ability supposed to represent?  In the Frogbear's document the "Stubborn" ability has this flavour text:

Quote: 

Khorne's followers are incensed with rage and the need to slay in his name. Under such adrenalin, such warriors have been known to ignore the battle around them.


And then it has a rule about getting saves vs hackdown/broken BM hits.  In my mind, these two aspects, flavour and rule, have nothing to do with each other.  

Frenzy, if I adopt this, also works in with the idea of the Feel no Pain aspect and therefore is defensive.

People who are in a Frenzy may well ignore what is going on around them which is what the BM are supposed to represent.

The attack profile on the core units already represent the fighting capability which does not need any further boost.

Does this make sense?    :grin:

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