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Space Marines tactics questions

 Post subject: Re: Space Marines tactics questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:51 pm 
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I agree that he is in play, just not able to activate.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines tactics questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:57 pm 
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So....popular opinion is to just play it safe, and put SC in with a tactical squad.

If thats the case then just on general principle I may go against the grain and put him with my terminators, have him on the front lines. Damn The Torpedoes, Full Speed Ahead!

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines tactics questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:01 pm 
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Give it a shot. I wouldn't teleport him in turn 1 though. A BTS/SC sitting on your baseline while the rest of the army is 90cm away is a pretty tasty target.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines tactics questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:19 pm 
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Or go all out for a turn one, activation one drop of doom! Might work, but unlikely!


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines tactics questions
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:26 am 
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Eh....I ended up going the traditional route......SC in with tacticals. I still want to try out putting SC in with terminators but if it turns out to be a really bad idea, I don't want to be tied to that selection for the duration of the tournament.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines tactics questions
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:19 pm 
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I'm finally getting my forces organized to fight the way I want to fight. In last night's game I went with a couple of thunderhawks (one loaded with terminators, other with a unit of assault and unit of devastators) and thunderbolt fighter support, and I also took a chance and put SC in with another terminator unit that teleported in - plus a healthy number of armored and fast attack units on the ground initially.
Turn one went fantastically - it will surely be a turn long-remembered by both of us, and set up the rest of the game for me. I'm really enjoying the tactic of using thunderhawks to be able to land a heavy-hitting force and rip a unit apart. (I don't have any drop pods yet, but am looking forward to getting some and including them as well)
Since I am so thrilled with this style of play - attack from above, drop in and hit hard - can anyone recommend anywhere I can read up more on this strategy? I know there is a particular chapter of marines that specialize in this (can't think of their name at the moment) and I know Dave has played with them, but is there a list of these type of space marines available to draw from?

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines tactics questions
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:38 pm 
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Oh boy, there goes the neighborhood. All you need is the obligatory 2-3 warhounds and you'll just kick the crap out of all of us here in the NE US. ;)

I kid b/c there are currently a bunch of threads on the Adeptus Astartes forum lamenting the one-dimensionality of the SM list

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines tactics questions
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:41 pm 
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Raven Guard:

viewtopic.php?f=73&t=19195

We ran half a dozen tests earlier this year, I haven't gotten a change to test the changes Neal put in yet though. With the point increases they're probably closer to being balanced however.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines tactics questions
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:54 pm 
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captPiett wrote:
Oh boy, there goes the neighborhood. All you need is the obligatory 2-3 warhounds and you'll just kick the crap out of all of us here in the NE US. ;)


there he goes again. I'd be careful, he'll start lamenting special rules and free MW toting characters next :)


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines tactics questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:43 pm 
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Haven't played a game since that tub-thumping I gave Chris a few weeks back, so I haven't had a chance to play more with this new airborne strike list, but my thoughts now turn to artillery.

In every game I've played since I started Epic, I've always taken Whirlwinds. That artillery barrage CAN lay down some hurt (and at least a blast marker) and really comes in handy....when my opponent comes into range, that is...and they are always a big target in my rear lines for me to have to be concerned about and my opponent to go after. But to put together the list I used on Chris, I had to leave them out...too costly. At the time I thought I was crippling my attack by not having any indirect fire, but it didn't turn out that way at all. I had put those points into my frontal-assault and made it that much more brutal. If I had reduced the forces up in Chris' face to get artillery support...who knows how it would have turned out...

At 300 points, plus 75 points to add a hunter to protect from air attacks.....do people here think formations of Whirlwinds are too costly for the effectiveness they provide?

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines tactics questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:25 pm 
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More often than not I'll use them to prep assaults and thin a formation a bit before I engage. They're not guard artillery and it's important to remember that when using them. So don't expect them to break formations outright through BP BM bonuses, or roll huge amounts of dice.

They're also useful for keeping the enemy spread out (useful for clipping) and keeping them in cover (useful when it comes to objective placement and contesting/controlling, so place objective accordingly). Those things become more apparent the more you use them, and can help you disrupt your opponents plans and ability to use his units to their fullest.

I will say though that they are the only Marine tank to remain at their original pricing when we've seen all the others go down in price from 25-50 points a formation. A hunter with them is useful only if you're playing a defensive game. Otherwise, I'd rather have the ability to move my AA bubble and use its AT shots.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines tactics questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:55 pm 
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Hunters should be a fairly low priority choice with Whirlwinds unless you really want extra AA.

It's usually better to put Hunters in formations that will have a chance to take advantage of the Hunter's direct fire. Most of those formations are going to be tougher than Whirlwinds. Whirlwinds are a priority target, so the Hunter will often last longer in a "line" formation than with the arty. Also, your army is generally going to move forward en masse except for the Whirlwinds. Keeping it with the forward battle line gives you more coverage over your army, while leaving it with the Whirlwinds often means most of your army outruns coverage.

In tournaments it is common to see a Tactical formation with the Supreme Commander and a Hunter or a Devastator formation with a Hunter for these reasons.

In terms of protecting the Whirlwinds, it's not hard to keep the Whirlwinds under the AA of the Hunter early in the game, so they still get the benefits if someone tries to air assault them. Later in the game, there is a good chance they will have burned the air assault on another target. As a last defense, with their 30cm move it's feasible to rush Whirlwinds forward to get line of sight and fire directly if you're seriously concerned about them being picked off.

Aside from that, what Dave said.

Whirlwinds are a regular feature in my SM lists. I left them out for a long time and when I went back to them I couldn't remember why I stopped.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines tactics questions
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:16 am 
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Ahh the humble Whirlwind, so subtle, so maligned ;)

Sometimes it isn't what a weapon can do that represents its true value over what it might do. The Whirlwind falls into this category, as does the Ork Oddboyz in small formations and others. This is the subtle part mentioned in the comment above.

I have seen many players pass on what looks like an average unit/formation for something they percive as 'better' for their army list. The maligned part from the above comment.

Tactically speaking the more 'effect' you can get out of a formation/unit the more true value it actually has on the battlefield.

Think of it this way. In battle you want to both bend the enemy to your will and force them to react the way you want. Do that and you will gain the initiative, and if you have the initiative you will win the battle. The humble Whirlwind forces the enemy, within its 90cm reach, to spread out and use cover thus this single formation is bending the enemy to your will and forcing them to react the way you want them to over a very large area. The next important step is to then take advantage of that benefit to gain the initiative.

Too many players fail to see this and exploit it.

Epic-A Proverb: Sometimes it is the threat of what a formation can do that is more important then what they actually do.

Seek out those hidden gems in your list, they will pay you back many dividends in the end.

Oh yea, Hunters do accomplish more with the frontline formations then they will ever sitting back with the Whirlwinds at the base line.

Jaldon

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines tactics questions
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:33 pm 
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I agree with Jaldon - Eldar nightspinners have a similar effect. They force the opponent to either deal with the formation (thus allowing you to do more of what you want) or maneuver to avoid them (thus decreasing the effectiveness of their force and/or setting themselves up for attack by yours).

Either way, getting your opponent to do what you want them to do and not what they want to do is an excellent way to win games :)


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines tactics questions
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:37 pm 
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My experience against Marine lists leads me to completely agree with Jaldon.
Whirlwinds have really punished my formations (esp. IG, for obvious reasons) when I haven't spread them out sufficiently. They can be hit or miss, but your opponent has to take into account that they may 'hit' and do a lot of damage.

I've also been putting a hunter with my whirlwinds a lot, a measure that I'll reconsider after reading this thread...

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