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4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Tau

 Post subject: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Tau
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:28 pm 
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Another try with the Skitarri, vs some air drop capable Tau this time.

https://hordesofthings.blogspot.com/201 ... s-tau.html

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Tau
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:36 pm 
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Thanks for the report! Was there any reason tau didn't air drop the Arty formations? I would have expected the assault and pinpoint attacks would have focused on them.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Tau
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:59 pm 
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Vaaish wrote:
Thanks for the report! Was there any reason tau didn't air drop the Arty formations? I would have expected the assault and pinpoint attacks would have focused on them.


I think as for previous game, he would have been hard pressed to get an optimum position to damage them as effectively as he damaged the other Ordinatus (which he managed to crossfire in the open), and also exposed himself to annihilating counterfire in the process. Other formations are also more immediately dangerous to those in the area, as well as being easier to kill off being on the flanks. Artillery also doesn't do as much immediate damage, but it can also sit in optimum defensive positions, and deal this damage to anything it chooses. Other artillery formations die reasonably easy if you get near them, (consider 600 points of guard arty) but barring something like terminator assault these ones are fairly impervious.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Tau
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:25 am 
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Thanks, sometimes hard to tell exactly what's happening in the pics. I would have thought he'd strip shields on the CLP and then pinpoint it to death. Overall it seemed like a good game though. Just in case you aren't checking the Playtest changes thread, here's what I'm leaning toward for the next update.

Carapace Landing Pad to 50 points
Quake Cannons +25 points to 100 points.
Support Missile +50 points to 100 points
Avengers gain +1 Lascannon per unit.
Ordinatus Golgotha (hellfire missiles) stats replaced with Orbital Bombardment, 4bp MW, Slow Firing, Indirect. Cost increases +50 points to 200 points.

I want to reduce the reliance on arty in skitarii that's cropped up with the changes in 2.1. Between the Barrage missile, Golgotha, and Quake +CLP there's a lot of indirect happening and I want that to be a bit less prevalent. The intent was you'd take more of the other toys :)

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Tau
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:28 am 
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Thanks Vaaish.

Quote:
Carapace Landing Pad to 50 points
Quake Cannons +25 points to 100 points.


This would have a similar effect to +100 CLP, but would anyone ever take QC without a CLP? Not sure they are worthwhile without it at that points. To me the CLP seems the really fearsome addition that should cost a packet. No LOF needed even when moving is huge.

Quote:
Support Missile +50 points to 100 points


Maybe though not totally convinced it is problematic at current points either given it only has one shot. It killed a single unit in this game for example. Will see if Andrew thinks it is still worthwhile at +100.

Quote:
Avengers gain +1 Lascannon per unit.


4xAT5+ on a single plane, together with 2AP3 and 3 AA shots. Not sure if starting to get overpowered compared to Thunderbolts for example, but might be ok given your paying +50 points.

Quote:
Ordinatus Golgotha (hellfire missiles) stats replaced with Orbital Bombardment, 4bp MW, Slow Firing, Indirect. Cost increases +50 points to 200 points.


Don't think that would be worth taking at that price. 2 rather than 3 shots per game (and then not on adjacent turns) and can't do larger barrage option. And also hardly seems like an awesome inspiring weapon with those stats :) Present one at +50 points seems ok to me but Andrew might have different thoughts having faced it twice now.


Also note I was playing multiple arty weapons not necessarily because that is what I would select in an ideal list, but to see if they felt overpowered (even with points increase on them) compared to other options in the list and generally. I'm not sure they did at higher points value, e.g. ditching either the Minoris or Majoris artillery for another direct fire Minoris formation wouldn't harm the list effectiveness I think.

Also Andrew have another battle with him using Skitarri Tuesday 6th Novermber so that will be some more feedback.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Tau
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:21 am 
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Quote:
This would have a similar effect to +100 CLP, but would anyone ever take QC without a CLP? Not sure they are worthwhile without it at that points. To me the CLP seems the really fearsome addition that should cost a packet. No LOF needed even when moving is huge.


Similar arguments have been made before we dealt with the issue by reducing the minorus to 2 units. Frankly, nobody takes the Quake without a CLP and I'd like to keep the Apoc launcher version viable which making the CLP 100 points eliminates. The Apoc is much less problematic due to the shorter range and non macro attack. Basically the CLP is only fearsome because of the Quake Cannon. Anything else and it's a bit meh.

Quote:
Maybe though not totally convinced it is problematic at current points either given it only has one shot. It killed a single unit in this game for example. Will see if Andrew thinks it is still worthwhile at +100.


My goal here is to make the barrage missile more of a thoughtful include rather than a first choice. 50 points doesn't do that and, since the idea was floated, sticking one on your blitz guard demi-century seem to be what we're likely to see in the future and I want to nip that before it gets started.

Quote:
4xAT5+ on a single plane, together with 2AP3 and 3 AA shots. Not sure if starting to get overpowered compared to Thunderbolts for example, but might be ok given your paying +50 points.


That's not quite correct stats. Basically they are getting two extra AT5+ shots from what they have now and they really aren't that stellar performers. Each avenger would have 2x AT5+/AA5+, 2x AP3+/AT5+, and 1x AA6+. The last AA shots is rear arc only so doesn't really come into play much and the Avenger Bolt Cannon forces you to pick between AV and AP. With two craft you'd end up with either 4x AP3+ and 4x AT5+ or 8xAT5+ and no AP. I believe that comes to 1.6 hits on average against AT so not all that amazing.

Quote:
Don't think that would be worth taking at that price. 2 rather than 3 shots per game (and then not on adjacent turns) and can't do larger barrage option. And also hardly seems like an awesome inspiring weapon with those stats Present one at +50 points seems ok to me but Andrew might have different thoughts having faced it twice now.


It's probably more scary than what you have now per shot, but more spread out so it's not going to affect every turn. It's the same to hit and template numbers you have now if you fire off three missiles each time, just one less BM. The difference is you're using the large pie plates rather than the small blast templates.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Tau
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:38 am 
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Oh sorry I just noticed 'Orbital Bombardment' on Golgotha!! :D

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Tau
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:43 am 
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Hi
Thanks for the report…
So a question, with both armies having the same strategy rating, do you roll off to see who chose deployment options and deploys garrison first....etc. … or since you set the terrain up. Andrew chose deployment option etc..?
Vaaish wrote:

Carapace Landing Pad to 50 points
Quake Cannons +25 points to 100 points.
Support Missile +50 points to 100 points
Avengers gain +1 Lascannon per unit.
Ordinatus Golgotha (hellfire missiles) stats replaced with Orbital Bombardment, 4bp MW, Slow Firing, Indirect. Cost increases +50 points to 200 points.

Most of those look ok…although not sure on the support missile increase, but that’s want testing for...…May I also suggest, that the Orbital Bombardment say Orbital Bombardment template and may I also suggested that it only one template, add note saying that or drop the BP to 3BP…I think most would freak to know that getting two pie plates smacked on them…and that’s two turns out of four......

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Tau
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:50 am 
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PFE200 wrote:
So a question, with both armies having the same strategy rating, do you roll off to see who chose deployment options and deploys garrison first....etc. … or since you set the terrain up. Andrew chose deployment option etc..?


Huh, Tau are SR3, Skitarri SR2? So Andrew chose.

I also tend to make the terrain pretty 'symmetrical' tactically though, so that the main choice is just corner/edge.
When we have the same SR we roll off.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Tau
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:08 am 
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Markconz wrote:
Huh, Tau are SR3, Skitarri SR2? So Andrew chose.

I also tend to make the terrain pretty 'symmetrical' tactically though, so that the main choice is just corner/edge.
When we have the same SR we roll off.


Well Huh, Just proves I'm human and not a robot or PC doesn't it... ;D .

Cool nice to know..thank you..

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Tau
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:36 pm 
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Quote:
Most of those look ok…although not sure on the support missile increase, but that’s want testing for...…May I also suggest, that the Orbital Bombardment say Orbital Bombardment template and may I also suggested that it only one template, add note saying that or drop the BP to 3BP…I think most would freak to know that getting two pie plates smacked on them…and that’s two turns out of four...…


We can try dropping it to 3bp but that makes the to hit a bit worse against AV. You're still getting approximately the same width as two small templates, but a touch less flexible. Changing it to say Orbital Bombardment Template I think will be confusing in the long run with 4bp. I think most people would assume that you get the pie plate and check the barrage table for the rest resulting in two pie plates.

The support missile Is 75 points in the AMTL list so my first inclination was to up the cost to match, but added 25 points as a premium so the costs matches the cost of taking one prior to the 25 point drop on the minorus chassis. The goal here was to make it a harder choice rather than a first choice.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Tau
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:03 pm 
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Vaaish wrote:
Thanks for the report! Was there any reason tau didn't air drop the Arty formations? I would have expected the assault and pinpoint attacks would have focused on them.

The artillery formations were located centrally, surrounded by other Skitarii formations, and either in cover or hiding behind the cover. I could not get a line of sight for the Hammerheads, even with skimmer pop-up, without doubling. At least dropping in behind cover drew flanking Ordinatus formations forward before the Hammerheads were destroyed. I could not get any tetras in to marker light the artillery (marching is not an option since you lose markerlight) early enough in turn one to allow guided missiles to fire and strip shields. The artillery positions were over 90 cm away so no sustain fire onto them with guided missiles.

Also unless the target Ordinatus formation has activated already they tend to Marshall on you and all the shields come back up. Retaining with a Tau spacecraft (Init 2+, +1 for retain) is a rather courageous move. So the Tetra coordinated fire with the Hammerheads targeting the one Ordinatus (Assault Pod) in the open with troops loaded. And despite that firepower did not destroy it. It marshalled forward and another round of fire was used to strip the shields (markerlights already in place and Guided Missiles in range for sustain).

The Air Assault Orca dropped Crisis Suits into a markerlight, crossfire, 15 cm MW firing position on a Minorus formation in the open. BM suppression reduced AA fire to two 6+ shots. Getting close enough to air assault the artillery formations would have put the Orca through 6 x 2 x AA6+ shots. Orcas are not that tough (Arm 4+). Also shooting Crisis Suits at a formation in cover, without crossfire reduces the expected damage to maybe one Ordinatus. As it was, the best shooting my Crisis Suits have ever had managed to destroy two out of the three target Ordinatus Minorii [see dice in picture at top of thread].

The other Orca load actually came in on Planetfall. Pre-plotted on the other flank. Displacement of that drop point could not get close enough to the principal artillery formation. Also that activation came after the Spacecraft pinpoint attacks so could not be used to strip shields. The displace and random component set them up in a markerlight, crossfire, sustain fire position on a blocking infantry formation (8 dead, 2 broken survivors). The start of Turn 2 saw them sustain fire on markerlight Minorii, who promptly Marshalled off almost all the damage.

Vaaish wrote:
the next update.

Carapace Landing Pad to 50 points
Quake Cannons +25 points to 100 points.
Support Missile +50 points to 100 points
Avengers gain +1 Lascannon per unit.
Ordinatus Golgotha (hellfire missiles) stats replaced with Orbital Bombardment, 4bp MW, Slow Firing, Indirect. Cost increases +50 points to 200 points.

This puts the 2QC+CLP combo at 600 points which we have been testing. A useful (can hide and fire), very tough, backfield titan costed formation. Some armies have the tools to deal with it. Frequently my armies don't have the obvious tools to deal with titans and I try to ignore/avoid them. Hard to ignore a 90 cm (plus with Advance) ignore LOF formation but at least you can spread out. Affects how you play, but ok.

The Support Missile option at 200 points to add a one shot weapon probably pushes it to too expensive for me. Limited to 0-2 for the army also restricts it. A hypothetical three for 650 points is rather less fearsome/attractive than the 2QC+CLP combo at 600 points. +100 points probably costs it off the table for me compared to other options.

I assume the 4BP, MW, Slow Firing, Indirect, Orbital Bombardment replaces all 6 of the single shot Hellfire missiles. Cost 550 points. For me reading that stat-line, I'd need to pre-plot the target points and would get 2 large templates each turn of fire. If that were not the intention it would need clarification - please.

NEXT GAME - NEXT WEEK. My turn with Skitarii.


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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Tau
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:28 pm 
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Andrew_NZ wrote:
NEXT GAME - NEXT WEEK. My turn with Skitarii.


And what shall I face them with?! ;D Any requests...

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Tau
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:31 pm 
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Markconz wrote:
Andrew_NZ wrote:
NEXT GAME - NEXT WEEK. My turn with Skitarii.


And what shall I face them with?! ;D Any requests...


ATML ....please. ;D

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 Post subject: Re: 4K: Skitarri 2.1 vs Tau
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:33 pm 
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Quote:
The Support Missile option at 200 points to add a one shot weapon probably pushes it to too expensive for me. Limited to 0-2 for the army also restricts it. A hypothetical three for 650 points is rather less fearsome/attractive than the 2QC+CLP combo at 600 points. +100 points probably costs it off the table for me compared to other options.

I assume the 4BP, MW, Slow Firing, Indirect, Orbital Bombardment replaces all 6 of the single shot Hellfire missiles. Cost 550 points. For me reading that stat-line, I'd need to pre-plot the target points and would get 2 large templates each turn of fire. If that were not the intention it would need clarification - please.


How about the support missile at 75 points? That gives you 175 points to add it to a formation. Gives them inbuilt AA and cover for infantry in addition to the Single SHot missile.


On the Golgotha: yes, that would replace the statline for the individual hellfire missiles. My intent was it would work like regular barrages just use the Orbital Bombardment template so no preplotting. I guess I could just say uses pie plate in the notes instead of orbital bombardment if that's more clear.

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