A note on how the game was played: the game was played online using vassal over the period of a couple of weeks. Some parts were played as ‘play by email’ where we emailed the save game file to each other between moves. That said, large parts were also played while we were both online, spread over a couple of occasions – this covered most of the main assaults, from the start of the thawk air assaults on the warhound in turn 1.

Both Jimmy and I made quite a few mistakes in the game – I’d personally attribute a fair part of this to the piecemeal way in which the game was played.

Space Wolves 2.4.2 NetEA
Land Speeder 200
Land Speeder 200
Land Speeder 200
Land Speeder 200
Great Company 300
+ Battle Leader 0
+ Long Fangs 125
+ Hunter 75
+ Razorback(las) 25
Great Company 300
+ Battle Leader 0
+Grey Hunter 75
+ Hunter 75
+ Razorbak (las) 25
Terminators 325
+ Wolf Priest 50
Terminators 325
+ Wolf Priest 50
Thunderhawk 225
Thunderhawk 225
3000



Incompertus, 3000 POINTS
Black Legion (Epic UK v070414)
BLACK LEGION RETINUE [425]
 8 Chaos Space Marines, (Khorne), Chaos Warlord (Supreme Commander), Obliterator, Daemonic Pact (includes 1 lesser daemon)
BLACK LEGION RETINUE [340]
 8 Chaos Space Marines, (Khorne), Daemonic Pact (includes 1 lesser daemon), 4 Rhino, Sorcerer Lord
BLACK LEGION RETINUE [315]
 8 Chaos Space Marines, (Khorne), 4 Rhino, Sorcerer Lord
ARMOURED COMPANY [200]
 4 Chaos Predator
CHAOS TERMINATORS [425]
 4 Chaos Terminators, (Khorne), Daemonic Pact (includes 1 lesser daemon), Obliterator, Daemon Prince
CHOSEN [145]
 4 Chaos Space Marine Scouts, (Khorne), 2 Rhino
CHOSEN [225]
 4 Chaos Space Marine Scouts, (Khorne), Daemonic Pact (includes 1 lesser daemon), Dreadnought, 5 Dreadclaw Drop Pod
DAEMON POOL [75]
 5 Lesser Daemon
HELLBLADE FLIGHT [200]
 3 Fighters
DEVASTATION CLASS CRUISER [150]
DECIMATORS [225]
FERAL TITAN [275]

Yes – this list has two BTS formations … mistake on my part, I’d been editing the list during the day, then loaded it into the game later without realising it has two BTS!


Deployment:
Three formations of speeders garrisoned forwards. Wolves deployed away from their blitz in anticipation of the chaos spaceship. Chaos castle their war engines behind the scouts in fair of flying terminators.

Off-table assets: 2 thawks with terminators, chaos terminators, chosen, cruiser, hellblades, demons.

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Turn 1
No teleports, Chaos win initiative.

Hellblades enter CAP. Mostly a lot of stalling and moving up, a couple of speeders die, the chaos predators break etc. With 20 scouting speeders on the map the chaos war engines are bottled in to the lower left.



Main drama comes from Jimmy's last two activations: thawk air assaults declared against the feral, and then the decimator, on the left flank. First air assault takes out the feral for no losses, but the thawk is later vaporised by the chaos spaceship's pinpoint at the end of the turn.


The second air assault thawk blows up inbound with the loss of all hands …

Chosen pod in and move to bubble the uncontested wolf blitz. All rally.

end of turn shot:

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Turn 2
Chaos teleport in with 0BM, Chaos win initiative, terminators summon then assault great company on the left flank (which still has 1BM left after rallying end of last turn).

Terminators win by 3, leaving 3 grey hunters and 3 APCs alive to break.

Speeders move in to try and chip away the scout screen (chosen) covering the decimator. Chaos BTS ret overwatches the speeders, breaking them.

Marine terminators retain and charge the chosen, killing 2 for the loss of two terminators (!), terminators win anyway and hack down another 2 chosen.

At the other end of the map the chosen+dread formation sustain on another group of speeders, killing 4 with only 5 shots.


Speeders engage the terminators, breaking them for no losses.
Speeders kill a stand in the summoning ret
(chaos must have done something there, but no idea what)
Great Company BTS advances to middle of map, killing one stand

Decimator MW-barrages out 5 units of the BTS
Both remaining retinues single (one forward, one back) and shoot down 3 speeders between them.

I completely forgot I had hellblades to activate … *cough*

situation end of turn before rally rolls:

9 formations roll to rally … 6 fail … and that was with SC re-roll … in a pair of 1+ initiative armies!

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Turn 3
(bit fuzzy on this, moves will be out of order in places, but it went something like:) Decimator fires on the BTS Great Company again, killing two stands of Grey Hunters.

SW speeders move towards the chaos blitz (singled and shot BTS ret? or decimator?) to give supporting fire to the terminator firefight assault on the decimator. No damage done by either side, but terminators win and break the decimator.
Chaos terminators double towards the top SW T&H, killing the broken speeder by it.

Chosen on SW blitz summon demons and go on overwatch.

Remaining SW speeders ZoC and shoot the chaos BTS ret on the blitz. The ret moves right back onto the blitz and out of ZoC, pinging the speeders.

Hellblades kill two speeders in ground attack.

BTS Great Company fails to activate (no SC in army) and moves forwards.

Chaos rhino ret triples round to sit across both SW T&H objectives.

Last activation, I decide to have crack at assaulting the damaged BTS Great Company with my damaged summoning retinue. Jimmy roles a measly single hit, which is saved by a demon. Chaos win on the roll off and cut the Wolf pack down to just the commander … one stand away from claiming BTS


(think this was taken before counter charges were made, dunno, i was afk for a bit)

end of turn 3 pre rally

(there are 8 lesser demons on table even though 3 out of starting 9 were killed due to a 6 for chaos initiative in turn 3)


3–0 Chaos: T&H, DTF, Blitz

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Reserved for comments/thoughts on SW list – ill add some later today

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Nice report

Can I get the Vassal mod for this off you? I've been considering making my own, but this'd save a lot of effort (I can't get Tabletop to work properly on this computer).

^^^^ Second this request if possible.

PMd you both. See this thread for arranging games online: http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/ ... 88&t=28374

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Ok so general consensus between us was that Wolf Priests are still better investment than Wolf Lords even with Pack Mentality.

Even though not taken, Fenris Wolves should be init 2+ just like Blood Claws. Not wanting to take them as is as they don't feel fair to me. Adding them to Unblooded would make them play as they should be anyways- you want to charge the enemy with them. If done, I'd rename the rule "Hot Blooded" as it really is about savage and/or impulsive units since I don't really see the Fenris Wolves as being raw green soldiers as opposed to something that does a "CHARRRRRRRRGGGGEEE!" [well, snarls] at the nearest living thing and kill it. Just our 2cents...

We both have issue with the Great Company as is.
we're both feeling this should be 4 Grey Hunters with compulsory +2 [insert inf unit] upgrade. We discussed that allowing an additional upgrade instance of +2 [INF unit] would then differentiate the formation from the Codex List and still allow a strong BTS or death star to be constructed. That large of a formation with ATSKNF is irksome for an opponent to play against and in another build with 2 or 3 Great Coy, that'd simply not be fun to face (I'm going to add that it's not as fun to play either). In this game had the aggressive TBrick assaults not had one shot down the game would likely of been a deadly route for Apoc as his number one effective unit was that Decimator. Coupled with the BTS soaking up so much BM and still being effective as suppression doesn't come into assaults and the company is not designed to be a shooty unit it would be good to make the adjustment. So we're in favor of=>

4 Grey Hunter units with 1 Hero character plus transport, plus 1-2 of the following options (you may select each option only once per Great Company):
2 Grey Hunters units and transport: +75 points
2 Blood Claws units and transport: +50 points
2 Long Fangs units and transport: +125 points
1 or 2 Wolf Guard Terminator units: +75 points each

My personal feeling on the Long Fangs is that they are fine for shooting / price. You're paying a steep price for them on a difficult to use formation that most isn't going to do anything for a turn (sometimes 2).

The Pact Mentality defensive intermingling ability is too difficult to pull off and far too dangerous unless all BP weapons are gone. I'll point out the number of units realistically able to get into FF range means its a super situational ability. I have no worries about being gamey with it. Go ahead and bunch up, I'll just arty the hell out of that spot with most armies (including Codex Marines)

Apoc made an interesting comment about them playing like a loyalist take on the EUK Thousand Sons. I find that pleasing purely from a nemesis standpoint

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Thoughts and comments on the psuedo-PBE and the game in general as follows:
-Was largely an attempt to do a Proof of Concept of Vassal with PBE. It nominally will work with some gotchas and caveats/lessons learned
-Even when we could have played more interactive I tried to purposely keep it closer to PBE style through the whole game to try it out. Some of this was exasperated as mid game I ended up being a single parent for a week with two rambunctious kids AND started a cross continent move of 4000km which kinda cocks up the opportunity to play and isn't exactly conducive to strategic thinking.
-This is more general Vassal thing, but if you're not facing the same faction, picking different armies to pull your units from will speed up game play. Especially important for when you are playing across multiple days. So for instance, picking white scars, Blood Angels, and Ultramarines for the speeders would have made the tactical situation clearer.
-The Length of Game (vs the Time actually played) added to the decision to make a few tactically derpy moves on our game. For instance, I didn't realize that Chaos termies had successfully rallied and would have made a few different moves in T3 (till would have lost but 2-0 instead likely). Take away is to be sure of what's happening better by performing your rolls and outlining the results in an email (if doing PBE). Vassal chat / log window is Teh Sux.
-The game was a great test where some very different metas got to meet up for this BatRep. For instance the UK area terrain vs our local terrain habits (area terrain as per UK but smaller and more frequent - those woods, for instance would be 3 small ones each here). Another was locally WE/AC can aircraft barge which likely would have seen me take a tweeaked list. The fact the game / list didn't fall over when we crossed the streams makes me feel the list is pretty good (wolves and great coy size notwithstanding).

Looking forward to a AMTL vs Space Puppies rematch soon.

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Oh not to spam posts but I wanted to really point out what a great sport Apoc was on this experiment. Thanks buddy!

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It's definitely a personal choice. It all depends on how you use them though. I would think a Great Company with a Battle Leader plus e.g Blood Claws formation with Wolf Priest set 10cm away would be a better option. Add 9 units to your assault = outnumber, double outnumber + inspiring.


Fair points. I would argue however, that they are already a difficult formation to use and lacking any air transport ability or FF stat they often get wiped before they get to fight - the few instances of them that I used them this occurred each time. I wouldn't even bother with them at 2+. 1+ was the best option to make them close to usable IMO.


I guess it can seem that way, but in the majority of games I've stacked up the GCs it left me under activated and even large numbers in one formation meant little when the rest of the army is getting blown away as you're mostly forced to take smaller more fragile formations to help pad the army up for numbers. The SW are a fine balance which can easily tip the wrong way. I've still yet to find a balance/list construction that lets them win decisively.



Yes, the GC is a solid formation but lacking that shooting makes it more difficult to use well unless you spend 125 points for Long Fangs which again is an activation issue. A Thunderhawk also pays a premium in this list so you have another points issue. I've had Decimators absolutely ruin my Great Companies through shooting so I think giving up that soak ability to shooting abilities (including long ranged like arty etc) would do a disservice to this list. Would you prefer your expensive BTS to be more easily removed? Also, I based the GC off the Codex Tactical formation ability to pile on units so the ability is nothing new for Marines.

BMs do come into assaults in the resolution phase, so having a pile of them grants your opponent a +2 to the res roll. If you've lost a few of those units to shooting from prep fire etc you will have also likely lost your outnumber/double outnumber bonus as well. A simple clipping assault will still break them - I've had it used against me numerous times.

I'm not saying the formation isn't a tough nut to crack but you pay a price to be able to do that and to be fair, every other list has a hard-assed BTS. Put the GC up against a Titan at range and see which comes out on top.


Against an army without BP weapons though...? Again situational but effective if you can pull it off. I have done a few times - particularly against armies like Nids or Orks.


Now that sounds positive. I've personally yet to see how the NetEA 1K Sons stack up in a game vs SW.

Will comment more later (tomorrow), but just on this: it' similar to some Chaos cult lists in terms of having marines without ranged shooting as the core formation, centred around getting into assaults as mechanised infantry. So I wonder if the tactics needed with Thousand Sons or World Eaters are similar to what you need to do with SW. SW don't get demons, but they have ATSKNF (and can march, unlike TS). Either way I don't see the lack of ranged shooting as a big problem – a difference from codex sure, but parallels to it in chaos lists in terms of making use of it (TS being a strong choice in EUK in general).

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Yeah I can see where it comes in. I'm just saying there's plenty of grumbling about the Pack Mentality ability being gamey. I don't see it. You can do it, and when it happens it is going to hurt. I just don't think the hype around it is OHHH NOEZ. Seems fine to me.


Good point. Perhaps this should work more like the POWER OF THE WAAAGH rule, instead? The idea is to point them and charge so let's make that happen Anything else should be hard to accomplish.


yeah the puppies are particularly vulnerable to arty it felt. Also I have a pathological hate/fear of Decimators. NEVER KILL THEM EVER. Always something happens with them hahhaha!


Yeah I think you're misunderstanding me. People go, "OOOHHH NOOOEZE 3 SHOT DEVESTATORS". Yeah and you pay for it. Not like the Tacticals have a shot. If that was the case then fair enough complaint. It's an assault not shooty army, pure and simple. Great that you can double for the next turn and put a BM out there for 125. Not Overpowered imo.


Oh yeah I'm on your side with this. I'm saying it's cool, situational, a savvy opponent will take to minimize the chance and so not an issue for me unlike some of the heart ache I've heard

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Few thoughts.

SW list looks fun and thematic, i'd be interested in playing with or against them again.


Things went a bit askew for SW in this battle, what with losing both thawks t1 and chaos getting all the initiative, so I maybe don't have the most balanced testing view of them from one game. I also havn't kept up with the list development at all … that aside my two main thoughts as a new opponent of the list:

* Long fangs, 3 shots, why? are they the best devastators in 40k universe? I realise you pay a cost for it, but still can't see a reason: 1 or 3 shots … still places a blast marker. Also makes the longfang formation very expensive. Take them to 2 shots, make the upgrade cheaper, make the formation cheaper, easier to list build.

* Grey coy size. being able to take them up to 10 stands + the transports seems too much for ATSKNF power armour. At one point i shot 5 units out from a GC (+hunter+raz) in one go … and the result was still as big as an entire unharmed tactical formation. I'm not sure they need to be that tough. If i'd have to contend with the two upgraded GC *and* the terminators on full effectiveness it would have been a real struggle. As it was, I was able to kite the GCs until ready on my own terms.

(again, probably reasons for this in development i've overlooked, just highlighting my main points in combination with what JZ has covered already)

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