Some people seem to somehow have developed a creed that battle reports are essential for the development of army lists, and that without battle reports to back them up, opinions are worthless. Is this really true?

Battle reports are certainly interesting, and give a good overview of a battle. For games like 40k, where it is almost solely a matter of list construction, they are very useful for working out what works against what. However, epic is a much more tactical game, and is usually won and lost based on players' relative abilities rather than list construction. How much worth, therefore, can we really attribute to the results and events of a single game?

Can we really use the report of a game as evidence that a unit needs alterations? I contend not.

In my last game, a battle between Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard, my formation of 2 Vessels of Pain was broken on the first turn before they activated, and never rallied. That's 500 points that did nothing all game. If I were to write a battle report of this game, it could be used to contend that Vessels of Pain are underpowered.

"Look, they did nothing all game, so they must be rubbish."

According to those who adhere to battle reports as the sole evidence of unit capabilities, this opinion is of merit, since it is backed up with the "evidence" of a battle report. However, this is not my opinion of Vessels of Pain.; I consider them an excellent unit, based on my average experience over multiple games and the sheer maths of their on-paper abilities.

This opinion, however, apparently holds no worth to some, since I have posted no battle report to show this.

Surely this opinion, earned over a dozen or so games is more worthy than one drawn from a single battle? Just because something happens in a single battle, doesn't mean it usually will, and vice versa.

Surely I can't be alone in feeling that this obsession with battle reports has gone too far? They can be a useful tool, but to suggest that all opinions are worthless unless backed-up by a report is surely wrong.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Why is a battle report trusted more than an opinion based on multiple games?

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

The only true test is combat. Or, in our case, playtest.

Agreed, but that's not the same as a battle report.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

I don't believe anyone would lie in a battle report, but I see no reason anyone would lie about their ingame experiences without a battle report either. What would be the point?

The current wisdom seems to be that without a report you're a liar. That's unfair.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Have you been called a liar, has it been implied or do you just feel that people don't give your opinion based on explination any weight?

_________________
My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

EDIT:

In the heat of the moment, yes, accusations have been made.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

I think even trying to record battle reports helps in that it forces you to approach the game in more disciplined and structured way that a casual fun game. Unless you record notes it is far harder to keep track of the ebb and flow of the battle- especially if trying to sum up much later.

One battle report may not mean that much. But several together would give a more accurate picture of how balanced armylist is.

Cheers

James

_________________
My TOEG- Blood Angels and Deathbolts
My Painting Blog- Evil Sunz, Goffs
My Epic trades list

Battle reports are also subject to interpretation and to be frank the reporters ability to explain what's going on. I think all views are valid and conclusions are personal at the end of the day. However the whole playtest/development thing is beyond me and I leave it to better minds.

_________________
My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Ok, Zombo these comments posted are of themselves very inflammatory but this is only one side of the conversation. Without knowing the full exchange I'm finding it hard to form a proper opinion. I certainly do not think these comments shown are acceptable as a way to negotiate any type of compromise and can only conclude this is one side of a very heated exchange that has resulted in bad feeling all round.

I would suggest a cool off period would be the best step... or a stress hug?.. (sorry not trying to piss you off just my attempt to lighten the mood.)

EDIT: For a brief period the comments had been posted but later edited off leaving me to look a right biff, cheers.

_________________
My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

You are correct, these have indeed come in heated exchanges, and while I find the suggestion that I am lying offensive, I also am trying to make the general point that perhaps battle reports shouldn't be the be all and end all.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

In that I will agree so long as you can also agree that conversely Playtests do play an important (possibly an as equally important) role in the development process.

Therefore as far as I can tell playtest no longer become the problem. The way in which they are viewed by both parties involved in this incident is... and it is those views and opinions that need to be addressed.

No one can tell another in what way they should think and I would never attempt to do so. I don't have the know how or desire to do so. I am no moderator and consider myself fairly new and inexperienced in the forum.
However, I would remind everyone that there is a code of conduct pinned on this forum that covers situations like these and I would strongly advise that anyone involved in this potentially hot potato to go and read them again before taking up this exchange from where it had left off.

Now I'm only hoping this has been of some small help and that I will not be viewed as some NOOB trying to interfere or take charge or teaching grandma to suck eggs. I'm only expressing my view on an open subject in a forum I enjoy.

_________________
My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

I hadn't seen this thread till now... Nice.  

As the person who made the accusation of lying with this quote:
I shouldn't have to post this message over again over again. We're all
adult enough to read and comprehend English and I can only assume
moving forward that failure to produce a batrep with an opinion to back
it up means either:
1. You don't care enough as to what kind of change I make
2. You are lying / exaggerating
3. You are trying to blatantly irritate me
4. All of the above

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Are battle reports essential? No.
Are they very useful in adding context? Yes.

This is not about the 'truth' or otherwise of the poster, for me. It is about the context of the force. The fact is that certain people play in certain styles. If a person constantly finds that they have a problem with a specific unit, to may be due to their play style, the other units that the 'always take' the amount of terrain, the standard enemies and lots of other things. A comment of 'this unit needs an increase/decrease' makes a point, but often there are details that are only clear in a battle report because the person themselves dont even realise that they play in a specific way that other people just dont.

It is also key in giving alternatives. I dont believe that changing a unit should be the first reaction, and that we should all try to find a different play style first, to see if changing tactics or games or opponents switches the situation at all - for better or worse.

Finally, I do hope that people will try to realise that we are talking about a game here, and that this is an extremely difficult medium in which to develop. The fact that we have a huge variety of play styles, forces, opponents, rules interpretations, opinions and other factors, along with an enormous level of passion for the game and a group or people that are not likely to actually talk face-to-face - forget about actually playing each other - makes it a minor miracle that we have actually got this far and this much development achieved.

_________________
https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.