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Salamanders vs Ultramarines

 Post subject: Salamanders vs Ultramarines
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:39 am 
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No pics, brought the wrong phone.

Gavin's Ultramarine force

10th company
150 Scouts
100 SC
075 3 Razorbacks
150 Scouts
050 Captain
075 3 Razorbacks
150 Scouts
075 3 Razorbacks

9th company
175 Assault Marines
050 Captain
175 Assault Marines
200 Land Speeders
200 Bikes

050 Chaplain

1st company
350 Terminators
050 Chaplain
100 2 Dreadnaughts

200 Thunderhawk
350 Landing Craft
275 Warhound


Salamanders Expeditionary force

2nd Company
300 Tactical
150 Promethius
100 Salamander Tacticals
075 SC
075 Hunter
300 Tactical
075 Hunter
250 Devestator
125 Salamander Devestators
050 Chaplain
050 Dreadnaught
250 Devestator
100 Land Raider
200 Land Speeders
225 Thunderhawk


1st Company
325 Terminators
050 Chaplain

7th Company
150 Scouts

150 Thunderbolts

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 Post subject: Salamanders vs Ultramarines
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:26 pm 
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To put my totally "unbiased" view in first, I was continuing a thought from elsewhere that scouts can / should be usefull and possibly get promoted into fully fledged marines - - - if they survive.

Well, things didn't go quite to plan . . . .

Deployment
On an table with lots of cover, we set up our Blitz slightly off-centre from each other with the objectives spread across the middle of the table. Salamanders kept their big Devastator formation off-table in the THawk and the Terminators for teleporting, while the Smurfs put the Assault marines in the THawk, and the Terminators in the Landing Craft.

The Salamanders garrisoned some scouts in the woods near the centre of the table and the Smurfs decided to garrison some scouts by the Northen most objective placed just behind some buildings.

Then the Salamanders spread out the rest of their forces across the Eastern edge with their BTS on the Northern flank, while the Smurfs "castled" together around the Warhound for mutual support. ?

Turn 1
Salamanders teleport their Terminators into some buildings in the SMurfs deployment zone 12cms north of the "castle", and then won the strategy roll.

As there was no AA, the Salamander TBolts flew in to strafe and break the Smurf Land Speeders, then the terminators opened up on the nearby scout formation - which saved the two hits caused.

The Smurfs Landing Craft assaulted the Salamander BTS tactical company, getting 5x MW hits and 5x normal hits and although they lost a Dreadnought, they then won the roll-off by 6, leaving one Salamander Rhino and two tacticals fleeing south across the deployment zone. Then the plan went to pieces (Burnside would have been proud!) Rather than reinforce the victorious Termies by assaulting (and probably destroying) the next tactical formation, the Smurfs decided instead to use the THawk and Assault marines to Firefight the Salamander Terminators, relying on numbers to defeat them - when the dust had settled, there was a dead THawk and two broken formations for the loss of one Terminator! - almost any other activation would have been better :blush:

The Salamanders used the reprieved Tacticals to kill one Teminator, their Land speeders to kill a second, and subsequently brought in their THawk and Devastators to assault the Landing Craft and Termies. One Termie countercharged the Speeders bringing them into the combat, but they were fighting a losing battle. While 4x Speeders died, the Smurfs formation was completely destroyed.

In reply, the SMurfs retired their garrisoned scouts to the north of the troublesome Salamander Termies setting up a cross-fire, sustained with the Scouts on the southern side and finally assaulted with the bikes, losing two, but destroying the Termies.

Finally, the Salamander scouts moved North to shoot at the broken Assault marines hiding in buildings in the center of the battlefield, moving their second Devastator formation in support, while the SMurfs advanced their last Scout formation and the WarHound behind some hills to engage the enemy scouts killing two scouts units.

End of turn
The Salamander BTS remains broken, but everything else rallies

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 Post subject: Salamanders vs Ultramarines
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:14 pm 
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Turn 2

Initiative SMurfs - on a tie.

Almost simultaneously we both commented on the relative lack of forces in the centre of the table, as both sides had concentrated on clearing their rear for the majority of turn #1. The lone Salamander Tactical being opposed by the SMurf Scouts supported by the WarHound. As a result, both sides concentrated on dislodging the opposing forces from the centre of the battlefield - - - - - -

The other two SMurf scout formations joined their colleagues forming a line, and fired on the Salamander Tacticals and the remenants of their scouts - just laying BMs. In reply, the advanced Salamander tacticals sustained on the SMurfs scouts, followed by the Devastators that advanced to their rear, likewise only laying BMs.

The remenants of the SMurf Landspeeders then advanced, causing a hit on the tacticals, and the lone Salamander Speeder snuck around to the rear of the SMurf Warhound to get crossfire, but no hits; and was promptly dispatched by the SMurf bikes assaulting from the baseline.

The remenants of the Salamander scouts sustained on the Assault marines to the north of their position to no effect, and in reply one Assault formation marshalled, removing all BMs and moving to a supporting position against both the Tacticals and the scouts, followed by the second formation assaulting and massacring the scouts.

The Salamander TBolts stood down - allowing the SMurfs "grand assault" to take place unmolested. All this manoeuvering ?had resulted in the Salamander tacticals getting 4x BMs and being surrounded by 7x SMurf formations (some with light to moderate damage). Looking to left and right to check the position of all the supporting formations, the SMurf Scout captain ordered the WarHound to assault the tacticals along wirh his troops and lead from the front; wading in, his weapons gleaming in the dwindling sunlight. The Salamanders, some armed with flamers, replied with 8x dice causing 5x kills on the scouts and AVs. Blinking, the SMurfs reached for the dice bucket throwing 17x dice of assorted types, scoring only 2x hits, both of which were saved!! :angry: ?Two scouts and a Rhino limped back towards their blitz, while the WarHound lurched forward blindly towards the nearest enemy objective.

Finally the Salamander THawk flew over the SMurf SC Scout formation causing one hit (I think)

End of Turn
All the SMurfs rallied (including the WarHound), except the SMurfs SC scout formation.

The Salamanders also rallied (including the remenants of their SC Tactical formation), shedding BMs like water of a ducks back.





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 Post subject: Salamanders vs Ultramarines
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:28 pm 
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Turn 3
Initiative Salamanders

Things have got a bit blurred, so Chris will have to help out. I think the Salamander airforce got their act together; the Tbolts wiped out the Landspeeders and with Eldar like cunning, the Salamader THawk landed in the SMurf table-half while firing at the SMurf Warhound that was threatening both the BTS and several objectives.

Mistakenly thinking the WH was safe, the two intact SMurf Scout formations sustained on the Tacticals, but failed to make any impact.

Then the Salamander BTS Tacticals moved while firing on the WH which broke again and ambled deeper into Salamander Territory. The SMurf assault formations moved to contest the Salamander BTS, which was countered by the Salamander Devastators and the game fizzled out at that point as neither side had any of the objectives except the death of the SMurf BTS (1-0 Salamanders)

End of Turn
The Warhound rallied again, as did most other formations, and we mulled over what might have happened in turn #4. Basically, the SMurfs would have been hard pressed to kill anything else, while the larger Tactical formations together with the rampant airforce were slowly shredding the opposition with impunity. So it was obviously going to be pointless continuing.

Thus, according to TRC, the Salamanaders won their first victory (or perhaps more accurately, they were given it :p )

Conclusions
A Razor back per formation is probably sufficient - 3x per formation is probably overkill and did not significantly boost the performance of the scouts - and the points could have been much better employed as some form of AA like Thunderbolts.

Failing to reinforce the terminators success by throwing the SMurfs Assault marines away against the Terminators was bad, compounded by not following the original plan of marching a scout formation to screen the DZ but we live and learn.

And the new dice were sporadically very excentric. Although used by both sides, the SMurfs had two key assaults fail spectacularly, whilst there were other occasions where the reverse also happened; when throwing to critical the Landing Craft, the Salamanders got 3x '6's out of three dice!

On the Salamanders list, I am not sure what to say - it needs to engage the enemy closely to make use of the short range flamers, but seems to lack a bit of speed, and would seem vulnerable to ranged fire and concerted assaults.





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 Post subject: Salamanders vs Ultramarines
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 5:06 pm 
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Gavins got it mostly right (correcting one stand +/- from assaults doesn't add anything :) ).

If I were doing what Gavins attempting I would build the scouts to be AP (Scouts, 3 Razors), then throw in Predators with hunters for AT/AA.

I think the Landing craft is underused. Currently it is 850 points (Termies, Chaplain, 2 dreds, landing craft). Either add in a formation of preds with a hunter and vindicator (for 1275) or downgrade to a thunderhawk (600). Is 2 dreds and two more dc from the 'craft worth 250 points? Or of course go for Scouts instead of terminators and maybe add 4 razors or 4 vindies (razors prob better).

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 Post subject: Salamanders vs Ultramarines
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 5:07 pm 
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I was trying the Salamanders as a) a battle company of troops and b) with fixed numbers of rhinos and 1-2 razors replacing one. So if you get a LR it adds transport capacity. The result wasn't that good, the ability to add odd razorbacks is probably better!

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 Post subject: Salamanders vs Ultramarines
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 5:23 pm 
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So was this a training exercise with blanks, laser designators, etc. ? ??? Last I checked the UMs & Sallys were on the same side ?! ???

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 Post subject: Salamanders vs Ultramarines
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:33 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ May 09 2008,17:06)
QUOTE
I think the Landing craft is underused. Currently it is 850 points (Termies, Chaplain, 2 dreds, landing craft). Either add in a formation of preds with a hunter and vindicator (for 1275) or downgrade to a thunderhawk (600). Is 2 dreds and two more dc from the 'craft worth 250 points? Or of course go for Scouts instead of terminators and maybe add 4 razors or 4 vindies (razors prob better).

I have tried several variations over time. It seems the key to the Marines is keeping sufficient activations, and consolidating on successes. The point of the LC + Termies is that you are getting ~70% more attacks than when they are delivered by THawk (17:11) and turning this into something that can consider assaulting even the biggest Titans with reasonable chances of completely destroying it given you employ 7x CC MW. IMO Adding a further formation to the LC is actually overkill for the assault, and a liability if they arrive by planetfall. Also, Planetfalling the formation means that the Termies / LC were the second activation - giving the opponent time to react. So the question is what to do once they win! There is obviously a question of timing, and the point is that you need to support them or risk what happened in this game - the enemy gears up for a counter-attack on the stranded formations, which do not work quite as well in FF as in CC (10:17 dice).

And yes, it was more of a training exercise for both sides to see which force was better equiped. In practice, the Salamanders list is more balanced that the SMurfs list, though I still quite like having "ordinary" and "extraordinary" forces (to quote Sun Tzu), and the reinforced scouts are quite a good way to capture territory - but need to be handled a lot smarter than I was in this particular game :blush:

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