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[batrep] Emperor's Children vs OGBM
rpr
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs OGBM
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:32 pm 
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I just had a battle with Nicodemus, using EC vs OGBM. Neither had any idea what the other player was going to use (but I prayed that I do not have to face AMTL or OGBM.. but more about that later)

Rules used:
- handbook 2.0
- flyers cannot contest objectives on the turn they land
- fearless units must fall back as any other units and cannot move to/remain within 15cm

OGBM:
Nicodemus will fill up the details, but he used latest fixes to OGBM list (Krawla downgraded etc.), with:
- great gargant with supa lifta droppa, snappa and twin scoopa
- gargant with 2x scoopa and supa-zzapp
- kustom with 2 zzapps
- krawla with snappa and saw, in tellyporta
- battlekroozer
- 3 fighta-bomberz
- (empty) landa
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rpr
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs OGBM
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:40 pm 
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Emperor's Children:
2.0 with following changes:
* SR 4, but d6 for the initiative
* Hell Blades as 200 for 3, 2x 30cm AP4+/AT6+/AA6+
* Debaser Noiseblaster as twin (AP4+/AT5+)

Retinue (Sorceror, 6 Noise)
+ Debaser
+ Defiler                          450
Chosen (Sorceror)            500
Daemon Knights               450
Bikes (Daemon Prince, SC) 400
Subjugator                   250
Questor                        250
Questor                        250
Legionnaires                 250
Hell Blades                    200
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rpr
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs OGBM
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:50 pm 
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So, here was I again - a second test with Emperor's Children and yet again I was forced against Titan list. Gee I hate them already and EC is not just suited to fight them - out of my 9 formations, 7 are better against infantry and 2 are equal. In the entire list there is one single thing which is better against AT and that is crossly overpriced land raiders, and most are better against infantry..

So, a problem.

Setup:
I choose corner deployment. Never tried it before but it felt like a way to have some chance in this battle. And it completely messed the basic battle plan of Nicodemus..



In the front:
 Noise Marines (garrisoned), Bikes, Subjugator and Questor #2.
 Daemon Engines (garrisoned) a bit further and Legionnaires (garrisoned) in the building at the center. Questor #1 at left flank.
EC blitz in corner just out of picture.

In back:
Ork blitz in far corner, other objective behind the hill on (EC) left flank, the other objective in impassable rubble in the middle behind the tall buildings.  
Gargant in right, Great Gargant in middle and Kustom next to it. Krawla in battlekroozer, which was announced to arrive on turn 3.
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rpr
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs OGBM
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:53 pm 
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Turn 1. No teleports.
Initiative: EC

Hell Blades CAP. Gargant put to Overwatch. Subjugator doubles to right flank and shoots at OW Gargant at safe 70cm range. No hits.
Great Gargant doubles and shoots the lone Legionnaires it sees.

Questor #1 doubles to middle and shoots at OW Gargant at safe 70cm range and misses. Kustom Gargant doubles onward but has no targets. Daemon Knights double and take position behind terrain.

Fighta Bomberz start an attack run against daemon knights. Hell Blades engage them and shoot 2 down. The remaining one shoots at Daemon Knights but misses (or maybe it hit but was saved).

Questor #2 advances to left and opens fire at Great Gargant, stripping 3 shields. Landa does an attack run against Retinue and destroyes one Noise Marine. Debaser flak misses.

Bikes march closer to Great Gargant. Noise Marines and Legionnaires marshal and do practically nothing else.

At the end of the turn, all formations rally. OW gargant is left with 1 blast marker.



Final positions.
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rpr
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs OGBM
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:07 pm 
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Turn 2.
No teleports. Initiative: EC

Questor #1 decides to sacrifice itself and sustains fire at Great Gargant, stripping its remaining shields. Great Gargant replies by advancing toward it (still keeping in range of objective) and opens fire - but only drops the void shields of Questor!



Hell Blades CAP. Kustom doubles toward Questor #1, fires it two zzaps.. and misses with both!

Questor #2 advances toward Great Gargant (keeping out of reach of OW Gargant), opens fire and causes one damage. Landa does attack run against Questor #1. Hell Blades engage it but any hits are saved. Landa hits Questor #1 but it saves but is routed. It hides behind the hill with objective in far corner.

Noise Marine decides that it might be a bad idea to wait for Ork bombardment too close to Blitz and doubles to new position, not too close to any objective. Lone surviving Fighta Bomber succeeds to activate, attacks Hell Blades and shoots one down!



Legionnaires advance toward Great Gargant and shoot one damage to it. Subjugator advances to forest closer to OW Gargant, in tactical charge range but out of range of Gaze of Mork. OW Gargant sustains from shooting it. Bikes march to new position behind the Kustom Gargant. Deamon Knights are set to Overwatch, and OW Gargant stays at it.



At the end phase, all formations rally. Again, OW Gargant is left with single blast marker, as has rallied Questor #1.
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rpr
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs OGBM
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:15 pm 
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Turn 3.
The turn of the battlekroozer.
If the Krawla was going to drop to EC blitz/objective concentration, Orks could end with 1-2 objectives this turn. So it was time to call the Chosen!

Chosen teleport to position behind OW Gargant and manage not to get a single blast marker from teleportation! (my first time ever, even with 4 unit teleport formations)



This calls for Slaanesh Victory Noise Blaster Solo! Naturally I roll snake eyes (or should I say Daemon eyes) for the initiative...
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rpr
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs OGBM
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:31 pm 
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Turn 3 continues...
Initiative: Orks

OW Gargant turns around, doubles (to make sure it does not Hold) and fires at Chosen from the Forest. Only single one is destroyed.

Bikes charge Kustom Gargant. In melee they only succeed to cause two damage (Daemon Prince TKs) to Kustom Gargant, which in return along with some help from the Great Gargant destroys 4 bikes. The remaining formation falls back behind the hill.

EC retains the initiative and Questor #2 fires at Great Gargant, trying to take its focus. One damage is caused. Kustom Gargant doubles over the hill toward Questor #1 and opens fire, dropping its shield and causing two damage and critical hit. Questor staggers and then retreats behind the building where bikes were earlier.

Landa attacks Retinue and while gets hit from Debaser, destroys it and one Noise Marine. Hell Blades stay down. Single Fighta Bomber also shoots at Retinue but misses.

Subjugator marches toward Ork blitz but stays within charge range of ex-OW Gargant.

Then Ork Warlord makes critical error...
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rpr
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs OGBM
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:46 pm 
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Turn 3 continues...

..the Great Gargant turns around and doubles to open fire at Subjugator.



Game Over.

Nevermind that Great Gargant only succeeds to cause one blast marker. Nevermind that after that the Battlekroozer fails to arrive (even with Ork Warlord yelling at it over radio) - it was game over for Orks. As Great Gargant moved away from the other Ork objective, remaining Chaos troops - Daemon Knights or Chosen, were free to claim it, resulting at least 2-0 victory to Chaos (Blitz, Take and Hold).
Even if Subjugator would have fallen, Chosen could have marched to Blitz and Daemon Knights take the other objective.

And finally Battlekroozer and thus Krawla failed to arrive and thus Chaos could also claim all their objectives with Daemon Knights. And although we did not check that out, I think now afterwards that EC also scored 'They Shall Not Pass'.

So it was 4-0 to EC after turn 3.
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rpr
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs OGBM
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:54 pm 
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Conclusion:

This game was not about Epic destruction or was not good benchmark about various units. It was lost to tactical error
and speedy units.

What was destroyed during the game?
* EC lost 1 Hell Blade, 1 Legionnaire, 3 Noise Marines, Debaser, 1 Chosen, and 4 Bikes plus 2 damage to Questor #1.
* Orks lost 2 Fighta Bomberz, 3 damage and all shields of Great Gargant and 2 damage to Kustom Gargant.

What could I say about armies? Well EC has even more problems than I thought earlier - an anti-infantry specialized army list is a problematic one. So little to do against armor. And their AA is really a joke. Navy helps here a bit (why initiative 2+?), but it is from the essential ally slot - ground flak is not. I still wait to have a change to fight against an army with Infantry .. and maybe Bikes will do something some day..

What Nicodemus told me about Krawla changes in OGBM they sounded reasonable.

We should really play so that either army is always a core army - it is hard to say if a fan/experimental list is balanced if both are using one..
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Nicodemus
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs OGBM
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:13 am 
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I felt sorry for rpr to have to fight against WE hell with AP weaponry. :(

But yeah, my plans was totally ruined with corner-deployment. I had never even considered using it so I was totally not prepared to use it. I placed obejectives totally wrong (Take And Hold was way too far from blitz). Is it BTW supposed to be possible to put Blitz right in to corner and do you then have to keep Take and Holds 30 cm away from both table edge? Because if it is possible then it would be impossible to put Take and Hold no nearer than 42 cm...

Da Plan was in its simple glory: Put 3 gargant in 3 of my own objective, shoot living hell out of enemy, tellyport Krawla between Take and Hold and Blitz, win by Defent the Flag, Take and Hold and Blitz (maybe even They Shall Not Pass and if enenmy puts his BTS to juicy place...). And use Landa to start firefights with formations close to Gargants to use their support to wipe enemy. Fightas were there because it is so stupid to leave them home. :)

__

That EC "ground Flak" is joke. Bad joke. Expensive, inefective immobile joke.

Why does not Chaos have decent Flak Tank? (I ask this before, did not get answer, so I shall be asking this until they either get that or I get my answer. "Fluff dont have it" is wrong answer)

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Ilushia
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs OGBM
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:46 am 
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I think the problem is mostly that the Chaos armies don't have any pre-created AA units. IG have Hydras, Space Marines had to have a new one invented for E:A I think. Orks have flakk wagons. But Chaos doesn't have any pre-defined ones. The core Chaos list has some very nice AA capacity in the Obliterator units, but the various cult lists seem lacking mostly in movement speed. The Debasers are pretty reasonable AA, 4+ to hit, 45cm range, Disrupt. Only problem is they're quite slow, which makes moving them around a pain, and rather expensive too.

I think it's mostly come from a lack of really good suggestions on what should have AA in the lists more then anything else. It was given to the cult Defilers because they're something (relatively) new without much pre-defined statistics. With the changes in the 40K codex (I know, groan and grumble on using 40K as a reference) there's now precedent for allowing Obliterators in Cult lists potentially, which might facilitate a change in the AA status of the various lists perhaps. If people are willing to go with that, anyway.
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Charad
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs OGBM
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:04 am 
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You have had a rough road with EC so far. :)  But against infantry those things slice them so easily. Yes, cult list has very crappy AA, so taking interceptors is quite mandatory.

Thanks for the report. :)

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs OGBM
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:27 am 
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lovely colourful battle :)

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Markconz
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs OGBM
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:04 am 
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Yes great report - thanks guys! :)

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rpr
 Post subject: [batrep] Emperor's Children vs OGBM
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:06 am 
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(Ilushia @ Nov. 23 2007,08:46)
QUOTE
I think it's mostly come from a lack of really good suggestions on what should have AA in the lists more then anything else. It was given to the cult Defilers because they're something (relatively) new without much pre-defined statistics. With the changes in the 40K codex (I know, groan and grumble on using 40K as a reference) there's now precedent for allowing Obliterators in Cult lists potentially, which might facilitate a change in the AA status of the various lists perhaps. If people are willing to go with that, anyway.

Well Obliterators would be definately be better than Debasers - as slow but at least they can be teleported or dropped - and have double the flak power per unit..   and to keep sacred 6 (and size of fearless formations down), they could be a replacement for standard unit (say, 0-2 per retinue, replacement +0 for Chosen, +30 for Noise, +15 for Havoc ..)

Maybe also an armored regiment of Black Legion or cult marines could have 0-1 Chaos Hydra... ? And/or chaos hydra as an upgrade to most formations.
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