This does seem a somewhat extreme set of views. FW notwithstanding, I am sure that you can get hold of all the "core" E:A armies either from Games Workshop or Ebay etc. You can equally use Vassal to practice against people globally. The ability to convert models has nothing to do with what you can use because you can proxy units using the 'counts-as' rule.

Tyranids (and TAU for that matter) are still under development, so it would be unfair to allow them in tournaments because people would not have been able to formulate strategies and tactics that work well with the army or against it.

As for the rules themselves, I would agree that there are some parts that are a bit quirky, but they still provide a cracking good game. Like Chess or Tennis, it is up to you to understand and play the game according to the rules presented, it is not as though there different sets of rules for different people (apart from 'special rules' of course ).

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Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Only those "3-5 IG troopers" can be designated as support fire targets if they're the only ones "directly engaged" by the initial attacker, no other defender units can be hit as no other defender units can attack, i.e., are "directly engaged".

Additionally, you're comparing 400 points of attackers to 250 points of defenders, with the attackers having "perfect positioning" and prep... by all rights, the attacker *should* be winning in this situation!

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

You can't get armies for which there is no models in sale OR NEVER HAS BEEN! Or since when there has been DARK ELDAR models available???

Lot more unfair to allow armies like dark eldar be used while core armies like tyranids aren't even if player handicaps himself by only fielding half the points! You can't seriously claim 1500 pts tyranid army would be too good against 3000 pts army???

And I don't have chance to formulate strategies or tactics against dark eldars either. Not single dark eldar army around here. Precicely what I'm talking about putting players to different categories based on their ability to convert. Tyranids aren't that bad in that regard because there ARE models for them out there so even if you aren't good converter you can play with or against them easier than dark eldars.

If one army should be banned because others can't create strategies or tactics against them then it's dark eldars. Not tyranids.

So since we have tournament rules that are just plain unfair to game of rule lawyers I can't be bothered to play in them. I have better things to do with my time than that.

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www.tneva.net

Yes and doesn't matter because only 3-5 troopers are likely going to be killed ANYWAY. Attackers are better off taking overkill for them than risk stalling attack because they allowed too many defenders in range. Defenders benefit more from lucky dice rolls than attackers so it's in attackers best interest to reduce chance of dice rolls getting funky. So it's no limit whatsoever if only 3-5 troopers are in range because that's all attackers NEED to have in range!

Attackers can choose precicely how many defenders they want to have in range. They want more than 3-5 in range? They can do it. They want just 1 in range? No problem. Attackers can abuse rules to get precicely how many they want without any problems! So your arqument that only 3-5 can be allocated hits is not problem. a) that's all they need anyway(10 FF attacks hitting at 5+=3.3333 casualties. Why would they want more than 5 stands in range?) b) if they want more they can have more. It's their choice. Defenders can't influence that one bit.

And this works against other units as well. IG infantry company too easy target? Try leman russ tank company. 400 pts vs 650 and russes are in big trouble!

Only things this doesn't work that well is against big frigging warmachines like warlord. Any other formation is toast.

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The precise scenario here is more like this:
(the very first was not exactly like this but could have been)



Here the "ssss" is the actual attacker. The smaller 'i's are defenders in 15cm range. Range to #2 is 6cm.

Now the defender (Ii) cannot countercharge any more units into range with clever/abusive (choose your POV) positioning of s-formation #2, nor cannot get any of them out of range either as they have to move sideways if they move at all. Thus all five 'i' remaing as targets for both main attack and support fire, despite any moves. In my opinion, major I force should be allowed to move toward #1, thus allowing them access to firefight, rather than moving toward #2 which they even cannot attack!

As my opinion before, some feel this is rules lawyering, some feel it is abuse, some think it is plain wrong and some think it is just clever and cunning tactics from attacker side - defender's problem that left such an open corner!

Well that not allowing premeasurement could also work.. might make some other parts of the game PITA, maybe should try sometimes...

Isn't this more a matter with this specific tournament, rather than anything to do with the EPIC rules?

Discuss it with the tournament organizer and see what their reasoning is.  

As to the Dark Eldar, a "finished" army list and rules for them has been out for over a year... I'd say that's at least enough time to read them over if not get in a "counts-as" game or two.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Yes but since that's the situation I won't be playing epic games. Period. I don't have cash to fly to England for epic games. Therefore my epic games are done for. I can't play at home(or should I play against myself on floor? LOL! What a ridiculous suggestion!) and I have no tournaments with fair rules near me.

And rules can be out there BUT THERE'S NO MODELS OUT THERE AND ERGO I HAVE NO-ONE AROUND HERE WHO PLAYS THEM AND ERGO I CAN'T FORMULATE STRATEGIES AND TACTICS AGAINST THEM! Reading rules isn't same as playing against them. Anybody can read tyranid rules as well so they can formulate tactics and strategies against them just as easily as they can against dark eldar armies based on list reading. But for actual gaming tyranids are LOT easier to find opponents because it doesn't require massive conversion skills.

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www.tneva.net

On that particular case, most probably the positioning was a bit off, but could have been positioned correctly if either would have remembered full rules :]
(or would have not had much change anyway, as the basic point was to stop 10+ IG units from advancing toward attacker to get into firefight range)

So the issue here actually is not the support fire from that other unit but the rule that defender cannot approach attacker , i.e. you can use that lone rallied bike to create clipping assault on which huge enemy force is not allowed to close the actual attacker as that single sacrificial lamb is on their flank...

Well, there's VASSAL for online play, so you can play opponenets from anywhere, and you don't need any models.  You could speak to the tournament organizers to have an "open" tournament with more armies allowed.  You could try to meet up with people you met at this recent tournament for home games or games in a shop.  Or you could quit and send me all your models!  

Lots of options.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Last time I looked vassal module had only orks, ig and space marines. Plus I don't have chances to play there either.

And yeah right. I don't think they will be driving 150km+ to where I play. Oh and wait...There's no stores to play in where I live either.

As I said. Until there are fair tournament rules I won't play one game of epic. No chance to play outside tournament and I refuse to play non-fair tournaments where I have to face 3k armies of armies I can't practice against while I'm not allowed to play one of the core armies for which I spent lots of cash and time to get them ready even by handicapping myself enough to ensure I lose all games. That's just so unfair situation I plain refuse to accept them.

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www.tneva.net

Most people have been using "count-as" in VASSAL to play any army they want, as you can re-label units to what they "actually" are, you just use the models for positioning... I believe, The_Real_Chris has offered to play you on VASSAL either in this thread of the "assault" one.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

tneva, I feel really sorry for the mess I caused. The used tactic have been used against me several times so I felt it was okay to use as long as the rule is not changed - that is just the idea of ANY game - they have rules that are used to determine how things work.

After playing in two gaming tournaments (not epic) already at Ropecon and in many others during summer, I felt that the idea of the tournament is to win by combination of tactic, army building and luck - using the ruleset provided - it wasn't as if I had found a new loophole which I was abusing as this tactic has been used against me by asaura/Hena several times, so I have learned it the hard way (and has always felt the rule WRONG and campaigned against it, but if it is used against me, well do I start some chivalric chapter that allows opponents to use it but won't use it in turn?)

What might have been a bit cheesy was fielding that 35 Land Speeders... but yet again, nothing new here, that kind of army has been speculated 1-2 years ago..


For that Tyranid/Dark Eldar thing, I really hope there would be a proper tyranid army out next year and that you would come to play. I would most likely field something that could win those pesky Speed Freaks...

If I supported count as rule I would have never bought anything but space marines and used them to count as whatever I want. I would have every army for like 50e.

I don't however want to keep track of which model is what.

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www.tneva.net

Spitballing ideas:

* Allow defender to FF with more than 15 cm range.

* Allow bigger countercharges, ideally encouraging in-formation reserves to defend against assaults.

* Limit supporting fire number of shots to primary attacker number of shots.

As it stands, a loaded-up APC in the middle of a formation is an excellent countercharge tool. A Chimera, for example, has 10 cm countercharge + 5 cm disembark range for the troops inside it. If the attacker can pin defender reserves, we are back to the "is this a feature or a bug" discussion.