Inexperience? Sure, being a fluffy player of course is the same thing as being a newbie.

I'd be fine with a flat +1 to rally. It's the way that ignoring nearby enemies works to gimp the enemies' ability to rally that I object to as easily and annoyingly exploitable in a gamey fashion, not the concept of allowing Squats to rally easier.

EDIT:
Incidentally, you managed an ad-hominem (attacking my ability) and a strawman (attacking a distorted version of my objection) there, without actually dealing with my real opinion.

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Thanks for the report guys. I'm interested to see what happens in the future with the Squats movement.

Tim. I'll bringing my Box o' Squats to ITB this weekend to get it out against some fresh opponents.

Well I want at least one game with my Necrons and then I'll see what else I play with/against.

Yellow card. Be nice. Think of rainbows and puppies before you post something.

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It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Fantastic batrep. Lots of work went into it. Fun read, sarcasm aside. Good game. Seemed like everything unraveled at the end for the Squats and some ill timed bad activation rolls, but otherwise a close game. Some things came to mind while I was reading that I have questions about...

Seems like Black Templars have been an army of choice for the Squats to fight against in your group. Any idea how many games they've played against them and their win/loss ratio? How would tkae compare against other armies played?

Obviously you didn't bring an Overlord, but if it were equipped with an AA shot (even a mediocre one) would that have changed your mind about bringing one?

On the 10cm/15cm move, did you go through and try to figure out what the outcome would have been with a 15cm move with the engagements? If not, what do you think would have been the outcome? How much would it have impacted those assaults (and game)? Just looking for some insight beyond the batrep.

In this game, it seemed like hack downs weren't a problem as they related to the 10cm move. Is this correct?

If the Hellbore could move, what would you have done with it? Theoryhammer time.

I like your stubborn idea. We'll put a pin in that one and -if you want to playtest it- I'd be interested in seeing how it works. Heck, I might try it myself.

I am coming around on the Warrior armament. The lack of range and AT shots is a pain for them. However, deciding to change their armament can't be done in a vaccuum. If we change their movement to 15cm, many of those concerns will be mitigated.

What were the thoughts on the Colossus from player and opponent?

Thunderfires died like in most games. Do you think that two formations of 3 each would have served you better? Explain. My own experience with them is that, despite their great battlecannon range, they are better placed in the rear as a back-up for holding the blitz.

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It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Thanks Bill.



They've played Templars three times now (lost to Templars 1-2 Turn 3 21st Feb, and an unrecorded game on the 24th Jan). From memory, they're undefeated against Chaos, about 50/50 with Epic UK Necrons and vanilla Marines. First outing against Tau tonight.



I've struggled using the Overlord even with the old Thurgrimms, and the French list. It's the 15cm barrage that's difficult to get in range and I'm not mad-keen on it either Spotter or Support Craft.

Would've loved to take them with an AA shot, just so I have something mobile that can shoot at planes. I did have one in my draft list on Sunday, but I swapped it out at the last minute twiddle.

On the subject, I'd simplify the autocannon to 3 shots all-around, ditch the Small Bolter Array (it's represented anyway with the Firefight stat).













Three times. First time I decide to launch it anyway due to strength of supporting fire. Second time I decide to activate something different. Third time I decide not to engage but shoot instead with a different formation.




Yeah. Though that's becuase Stomp didn't launch any engagements against any of the Warriors or the Berserkers. No opportunities for it to come up.



It would've trundled forward to sit within 15cm of the Templar objectives to cause Turn 3 issues, and lend support fire to its Warriors. I'd have also used it launch engagements with the Warriors in support fire.



I suggest a first step of moving Warriors to one whole Autocannon, and Thunderers to two (with no Heavy Bolters).



Way too good for its points, especially in firefight. Drop to DC4. Drop the Bolter Arrays. Increase speed to 15cm to match Baneblades.



Undecided. At the moment I'm expoloiting their price point to keep a competitive activation number, and also having something to garrison a bit forward, rather than relying on them for AA. I dislike keeping them on the Blitz as it means your opponent can get the Blitz and knock down the AA in a single move.

The option to increase them to three would be nice. You could also consider letting them attach themselves to the Goliath or artillery formations.

I read the batrep and I saw those sections. I was just wondering if you drilled down for any more details. Ex. "It would have caused x more Speeder losses and won the engagement" kind of feedback. No biggie if you didn't, but those what-ifs make playtesting a much more productive experience (albeit more tedious).

One point on the Overlords that was wholly accurate is there is no fixed left/fixed right arc. We poked at it on our last game and figured right and left arcs would work fine. They are so exposed when it comes to support craft status that I think we could arm it with 40 TK weapons and it would still die quickly. As to the AA, that suggestion came from PAR and met with some approval from posters. I'm to the point where it is just a matter of determining what AA to equip it with.

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It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

I can see where you're coming from with your objections to the "ignore -1 from enemy within 30cm" - I'd never thought of how you can use that to confer the -1 penalty.

The only objection that I'd have to the flat +1 to rally is that it then makes them as easy to rally as Space Marines. Does that fit the fluff? Can Squat sheer bloodymindedness equate to SM's complete lack of fear? It would still allow you to treat them like nutters and stuff them in the enemy's face as they'll still rally more easily than almost all the other races out there.

What's wrong with 3?
As far as I can tell, they used to be more heavily armed than Marine Devastators (3 "heavy weapons" instead of 2 per base).

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But then they'll break and die twice as fast as Marines. We're mostly talking about Warriors and Berserkers here with 6+ armor and without the ATSKNF ability.

As to equating Squat stubbornness to Space Marines' fearlessness, that seems on par with Epic breaking things down to their least common denominator. Ya figure a Firefight 4+ is the same no matter what weapon is being used or unit is benefiting from that stat. A Chimera moves the same as an Eldar Falcon.

The rallying easily may benefit the Squats enormously, or -as Dave points out in a different thread- it could spell their utter doom in the face of well placed opposition.

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It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

I really don't understand you at all Ben. Ignoring enemy within 30 cm is gamey but a +1 to rally isn't? Don't you see that +1 universal has the same effect but is better? The potential for gameyness is exactly the same but the army receives a universal boost.

As for ad-hominens, how is pointing out your lack of experience at ruthless, cut throat tournament style games AND experience with and against the squat list out of order or a logical fallacy? I also distorted nothing. I dealt with your opionion as it was written down and explained and refuted it with facts.

Honestly, I do despair sometimes. You can basically call me a liar and use as much sarcasm as you like but I have a tongue in cheek poke at a daft point you make and I'm "Yellow card"?

It appears to me that you can get away with giving out as much abuse as you like on this site, as long as you dress it up in passive aggressive, sly linguistics but a frank and honest comment that differs from Ben Skinner's opinion or points out holes in his experience gets you reprimanded.



Mosc: A few points stick in my mind from that game (And others we've played) against both BTs and Eldar:

Warrior speed: It really does cripple the fm and there is potential for hack downs. If the turn 3 engagement that Curis launched against the speeders with his tunneller warriors had gone badly fo him (Bad roll off for e.g.) then they would have all been wiped out as 20 cm mopve wouldn't have been enough to get out of 15cm of the speeders.

Warrior firepower: They really do need upgunning. Also, please change the thunderers to a simpler stat line. It's a real pain in the b*lls working out all the different shots and ranges etc.

Warrior squad sizes: These fms are far too big. They're hoard sized and really don't feel squat-like at all. During the game they felt more like really sub-par Orks than shooty and doughty squats.

The collosus: Is horrendously overpowered for it's points.

Ancestor lord: Still has too many abilities (The AW rule is enough to justify his cost on it's own).

The Thunderfire is actually quite nice. The 3+ battlecannons and long range 4+ AA, as well as cheap activation is cool. I like the flavour it adds. I really do think that the list would benefit from some mobile AA though. My personal choice for this would have been the Overlord gunship. Down-gun it a bit and make it a floating 45 cm radius, AA umbrella and suddenly it's a must have part of the list. I'd also be tempted to do away with the support craft (Also, does away with another special rule) and just make it a skimmer, like Tyranid Harridans. It's concievable that it can adjust it's altitude to hide behind big buildings, hills etc. Suddenly it's more survivable and also works within the existing rules.

Yes, I regard a universal rule as less gamey than one that only comes into effect when you coincidentally gimp your opponent's chances to rally.



Last tourney I attended, I beat Steve G, and Tiny Tim.
During the Tau playtesting, I was the first person to beat Yme-Loc's Tau.

I am not inexperienced. I just don't enjoy the no-holds barred style exclusively, so I don't game that way all the time (for example, during the only occasion you played me at the friendly tournament in bristol, I showed you how to position your units when air assaulting so as to dodge the AA and still attack with all units - that being the mark of a friendly game), that doesn't mean I can't play more ruthlessly when I do want to, at a more "serious" tournament for example.


In my opinion, you didn't.


The yellow card was quite clearly for both of us.


Nope. You're seeing things all wrong.

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Ben gets away with nothing here - not with me. You both got a yellow card. Keep your fights off my thread. That's the last I'll say on it. Next shot from either of you and your posts get dumped. Onto more constructive items.
--
Funny how the experience on the Colossus is so varied. I've watched three of them die now, two of them without so much of a whimper. We're definitely getting rid of the 3+ CC and the move will probably go to 15cm. With that said, what would you change it to?

I don't see the Thunderers being a pain. I do see the Warriors probably receiving a missile launcher down the road instead of a heavy bolter. Warrior formation sizes - I'd say your in the minority on this. Remember this is a pre-Tyranid invasion list. Squats were a major part of the Imperium. Their numbers were vast. HOWEVER, the post-Tyranid Trade Consortium will be far more streamlined. That type of list may appeal to you more. We'll see.

I agree with you on the Overlord AA. PAR's comments made a lot of sense to me and it appears to other like you as well. I'm not even sure we have to down-gun it. As for the support craft, I really don't see this thing bobbing and weaving like a Falcon or Valkyrie. Support Craft seems to apply here better than anything. Besides, that special rule is 'outside' the list, much like we did in the Raiders book. As far as I know it is part of the existing rules. Unless somebody changed something and didn't tell me.

Stompzilla, take a look at the stubborn thread. I think you'll like the direction it is going.

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It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

That doesn't make any sense. None at all. Who says it applies only to broken enemy units? Or even ones with blast markers? It's not uncommon for the opponent to move up a totally untouched unit to gain position and make your rally rolls -1. The squat player benefits from this rule, although there is the potential to also have it effect the enemy when used in a certain way (Much like most special rules - Eldar hit and run, ATSKNF etc)

+ 1 to rally does exactly the same the thing and is even better. The squat player benefits EVEN MORE and the same potential is there to use it to effect your opponent.

So if ignore an enemy within 30cm when rallying is broken and gamey then +1 to rally is even more gamey and broken yet recieves your full endorsement.

I'm sorry E&C but that's pretty illogical - hence my lack of understanding of your position. It's contrary and illogical.