Sounds like an excellent suggestion to me. I don't see why Ork aircraft would turn up more reliably than their Imperial counterparts in the first place? (if anything I would have said the reverse). Dropping them down to an effective 2+ I makes them less effective while not messing with people's lists.

Have been following this thread... interesting seeing different opinions on the list...

Will wade in with mine once I'm in front of an actual keyboard...

oh, you wrote the above only using your mind! THAT. IS. AWESOME!!!. :-P

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

I surprise even myself sometimes!

Ummies wait for boring things like orders, having enough fuel to get back, and having both your wings actually attached before they take off.

Joking aside, yeah orks have the most reliable fighters in the game, apart from nephalim (sp) fighters.

Since we're discussing playtest proposals, one thing ive noticed is that orks dont have initiative 3+. Realistically They have initiative 1+, but only have the options of double/assault/ground attack/intercept.

To make things more interestings, what are peoples opinions on changing orks to init 2+ base, with +1 bonus for orky things (assault/intercept), and -1 for un orky things (overwatch/marshall/cap).

Net result is planes are less good at bombing, and ground units are less reliable at simply driving to objectives, but in return now might actually use other actions (currently if im not assaulting then i'll double). This might have the knock on effect of making units previously considered poor (im looking at you gunwagons) slightly more viable

Yes I like this. All the things you want to do with Orks generally are init 1+ (March being the exception). This suggestion seems cleaner fix

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

Eh, I like it the way it is, and Orks have been fine for a decade. +2 for a Double lets orks move around and shoot, but not as fast as possible and not as efficiently as possible. I think it's a Nice representation - Orks like war, so if da boss tells da boyz to go someplace and make trouble, they'll do that - but he can't make them go faster (or slower!) than they want to, or make them shoot in a way that's not wild and uncontrollable. Not without risk, at least.

I think I tend to agree Ulrik, though it is certainly an interesting idea. The point is that the difference between 3+ and 1+ reflects the uncontrolled nature of the Orks. If you want to dabble with this (at your peril ) then keep 3+ initiative and change the bonus for different actions - though as Ulrik says, doing this will make the Orks more reliable when performing these actions, which may not be desirable

The issue with the Ork Flying Circus is more a case of the number of activations that can be used and the effects on the game as a whole, rather than the ability of Ork fliers to activate. If we want to influence this particular aspect of the game, then we need to be more specific in targeting these formations. Changing costs is probably the best approach IMO.

If you raise the cost of a Fighta-Bommer formation then you affect the balance of the entire list, and from what I understand it's long been held to be quite well balanced - which is why people are usually loathe to make changes to it. Even if we accept that spamming FBs are overpowered, then they presumably are only so because they are being spammed.
The simplest and most direct way to adress that is to prevent spamming - less points allowed to be spent on fliers - not to meddle with the balance of every list that wants to include FBs.

But that approach affects lists differently, because it affects every formation choice that's lumped into the same special allocation category as the FBs (unless you mean adding a new restriction only for points spent on FBs on top of the existing 1/3 allocation).

Changing the price of FBs directly affects FBs, and it affects them all equally. There are obviously flow-on effects, but they're generally less severe - changing an FB sqwadron to 200 means you can't take them and a Great Gargant, so GGs will probably become rarer... but if you reduce the allocation to 1/4, you can't take a Great Gargant at all.

My main concern in all this is that it's based on tournament results in a meta where, according to the person running the army, few people take much AA. Around here the meta is full of Thunderhawks, and people take tonnes of AA - I'd be very wary about running a list with so many aircraft. I kind of feel like "Let the list change the meta" is an easier, cleaner and simpler solution than "Change the list to suit the meta".

Kadeton, I'm interested to hear what people tend to take in your meta, i.e. "tonnes of AA"? Maybe for example in a steel legion army?

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list

Ok, well a bit of digging around the championship has dredged up the results. So given that different places have different meta, here's a breakdown of the tournaments, what AA I faced, and end result. Obviously things like landas are avoidable since they can't intercept, so I only get flakked by them if they land, or for some reason I intercept them.

1). Counter attack. This was my first foray into Epic Uk championships, list was a gazkull list. My air was 4 units of 3 FB, and a landa. I also had 8 flakk wagons for anti air myself.

Game 1 - Kevin bott. 6 Firestorms, revenants. Flakk was obviously mixed into falcon units/on titans. Result winning draw.
Game 2 - Alan Saunders. 6 Flakk (mixed into units). 2 landa (avoidable). Result Loss
Game 3 - Mark preston. Unit of hydras. Single hydra. Unit of TB's. Result win. Remembered this game, the hydra unit unit was first to go, wasn't covered by the hydra in the unit, so I braved the flak to kill one breaking the unit. Then shot it while broken to destroy it.

End Result W1/L1/D1

2). GT 2011. Freaks. 4 units of 3 FB. One unit of 8 FB.

Game 1 - Dave Bartley. 1 bio plasma shot from dominatrix (30cm). Result Win
Game 2 - Mark Hargrave. 3 Skyray (in units). Result Win
Game 3 - Dave Thomas. 6 Firestorms, nightwings, Raider (avoidable). Result Loss.
Game 4 - Mike Thomas. 10 gargoyles. Gargoyles only have 15cm range and were clustered into 2 distinct groups which were easily avoidable. Result Win.
Game 5 - Daz. 8 Flak wagons, 3 units of 3 FB, landa. Weird game this, Orks are no good at intercepting other Orks due to the all round defensive flak. Thus all our planes just avoided each other as much as possible. This was a very close game. Result Win

End Result W4/L1/D0

3). FSA 2012. Landa, 4 fightas, 4x 3FB

Game 1 - Matthew Otter. 2 Hunters, Thunderbolts. 4 thunderhawks (avoidable). Result Win
Game 2 - Dave Bartley. 1 Dominatrix. Result Draw.
Game 3 - Mike thomas. According to championship, none. If he did it would have been 8 gargoyles attached to harridans, all easily avoidable. Result Win.

End Result W2/L0/D1

4). Open war. Landa, 4 fightas, 4x 3FB

Game 1 - Dave Bartley. 1 dominatrix. Result: win.
Game 2 - Alan Saunders. 6 Flak wagons, 2 landa (avoidable). Result: win
Game 3 - Mike Thomas. 8 Gargoyles (easily avoidable). Result: Loss

End Results W2/L1/D0

5). The Tournament with No Name. Landa, 4 fightas, 4x 3FB

Game 1 - Time Hunt. 2 Thunderhawks (avoidable). Result: win
Game 2 - Simon Holyoake. Thunderbolts. 1 hunter. 2 Thunderhawks (avoidable). Result: win
Game 3 - Gavin McKenzie. 4 firestorms. Result: win, but it was a hard fight.

End Result: W3/L0/D0


Those are the results for me using over 750pts of air W12/L3/D2.

The same army exactly (since it was mine) was used by Ashley Marsh at Counter Attack 2013.

Game 1 - Tom Sanders. Hellblades. Helltalon. Result Win
Game 2 - Tim Hunt. 2x pylon. Result: loss.
Game 3 - Dave thomas. 6 firestorms. Nightwings. Vampire (avoidable).

End Result W1/L2/D0

Total results for army W13/L5/D2

65% win ratio. Judge for yourselves if you feel there was sufficent AA across those lists

Sure Jon will be along to reply to this in more detail, but IIRC that was the first time Ashley had ever used the army, and was also amongst his first few epic games he played...

Yup, which is why I split the results into mine (built the army, played many games with them, designed the tactic for them), and his (never really used them army before, had the principles explained and how to use them, but no real practise with them).

It's a shame we don't have a few more games from him with them, as apart from 6 games with iyanden (50% WR,), all of my other games are using the air horde.
Means that
A). It's hard to separate how OP the army is away from it being me playing them, and
B). I actually have no way of telling if I'm any good, or simply being carried by an OP army crutch lol