Quote: (frogbear @ Jan. 13 2010, 11:12 )
So have you found your games needing to end by turn 3 as you are struggling to find formations to complete objectives?
Not necessarily by turn 3, but it does tend to get harder in Turn 4 if you don't rally. It is often a matter of area control via Fearless/4+RA to hinder enemy movement and being that close to the enemy while broken means the chances to rally are substantially reduced. There's a fair amount of withdrawal move maneuvering in the end phase sometimes.
Quote:
Also how have your regular opponents felt against such an army? Have they been happy to face it time and time again?
That is the issue. It tends to be just pound them, pound them and then pound them some more. Assaults tend to be non-decisive because you're still beating on Fearless 4+RA troops. It's like trying to take down a large titan with assaults. The Thousand Sons just... won't... die.
Quote:
My initial thoughts were for these marines to not be able to March, have an Invulnerable Save and be Fearless. This would have dropped their points considerably.
I have waivered on this many times. I can't decide if it's the per-unit price that's the problem or the fact that I was sticking with a 9-unit formation. A 6-unit formation could probably go down to 300 points with the current stats.
Quote:
Probably even have 2-3 sorcerers in the formation of 9 units with a MW or TK attack each (orks have this) - these are just mad ravings I know..
This was tried long ago. Way back in the very early Black Legion testing, I suggested that every other stand of TSons should have a Bolt of Change attack (1 sorcerer per 9 troopers = 1 per 2 stands, like the IG). The result was that all those formations being very strong in assaults for their size and points and also having the ability to lay BMs was really, really powerful.
The other thing I tried in terms of adding sorcerers was to have them be a separate unit and not have the benefits of the Rubric, i.e. not Fearless. However, that turned the sorcerers suicidal as they were the only unit that could take hackdown hits (besides Rhinos, of course) and they just blew away with the wind.
Quote:
The major issue is that these cult lists seem to have to conform to the Black Legion which is a mistake IMO.
I think this is a good point. I'm willing to consider a major overhaul for a 4.0 series, as there are a lot of playtests saying that most of the games seem to come out as above.
One thing I would like to leave is the Rubric marines. I don't want them to diverge from the basic stats in the Black Legion list. Those are actually pretty good and flavorful, even considering the last mechanical revisions to TSons in 40K. However, a Rubric special rule that inhibits them in some way might work.
=======================
So, just spitballing...
Quote:
Rubric - All Rubric units are considered to be Fearless. Formations containing Rubric units may not take March actions and on a Withdrawal only move a single time.
The March issue would have little impact on their normal actions. They are FF units and Marching denies them support fire. I cannot think of a single time I ever Marched in a game. However, only having a 15cm withdrawal move would make a
big impact on their ability to use the "wall of Fearless" to fence off objectives and on the ability to use end-phase withdrawal moves to react to the enemy. I think it would be worth a 25 point drop for the Retinue to start with, possibly more.
Maybe 6 units + Sorcerer for 300 points (would represent 3 sorcerers and 24 Rubric marines) as the core retinue, instead of 9 units.
Sorcerers are basically the only "new recruits" for the Thousand Sons as Rubrics are a fixed quantity and nearly immortal. Another sorcerer-heavy formation (besides the Disc Riders, which are all sorcerers per the fluff) to represent less experienced sorcerers could be considered as well. It could stay in the rare section with Termies and Disc Riders. Maybe a daemon-summoning focus that starts kitted out with a Pact and a bunch of Thrall Wizards (the potential recruits). Or possibly something along the lines of a small cabal of initiates that still has some mortal followers, more like an inquisitorial retinue than old-school TSons with a host of rubric marines at their beck and call.
Fearless vehicles are an issue as well. Fearless Termies necessitate access to Fearless Land Raiders. Otherwise, the transport just evaporates as soon as the formation breaks. Fearless Land Raiders then necessitate Fearless Predators if they are in the same formation for the same reasons. Maybe Retinues and Terminators could have "Rubric" added to all of their transports as a note in the army list rather than as part of the datafax. Independent armor formations wouldn't have to pay such a steep premium for all-Fearless and they might be a viable alternative to Towers for fire support.