Daemons - are people using these in their lists?

If not, why not?

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Only list that I now look to use daemons in are my Thousand Sons and LatD for the other CSMarine lists I'd rather have the points on the table to start off with.

The main reason why is the cost of Daemonic Pact and the Daemons themselves. If you are going to use them then I'd say you need at least 10 lesser in your pool and then want to have four pacts so that you have some fexibility. That's a tenth of your army that isvery random in its usage.

I would like to see daemons reduced in abilities so that they can be 10 points each. Then we can see more of them on the table and give a useage for Icon Bearers and Chaos Champions and even then I'd probably reduce their abilities to make them +25 points each to make it worth while adding them to an army.

I tackled this in the World Eaters and Emperors Children lists.

Even by giving daemonic pact to units as a base, and reducing the cost to summon and keep them in play, daemons are still an afterthought.

Problem is that they are effective however points are usually used for another activation.

Perhaps if you built the points into the list as a whole and then gave the option for free daemons, you may see them played more. If the Eldar can do it (if they even pay extra for an Avatar - debatable), why not chaos?

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Perhaps each pact or chaos champion could come with 2 free daemons.

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I really like this idea right here. Adds a little more punch to the unit at the unit base cost, as well as getting people used to the idea of using a summoning pool. Thumbs up from me.

my problem with daemons is the fact that summoning them makes you more vulnerable to clipping and as soon as the formation breaks, any daemons you summoned are destroyed outright. i much prefer the way i handled it with my bloody hand set, where i use daemons frequently to decent but not overpowered effect.

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And the costing?

Meet half way and test from there.

You do have to change the rules on how daemons are counted for tiebreakers, but that was always a FAQ anyway.

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I'm looking at your bloody hand list and am actually searching GHQ to find some tanks/vehicles to be used in that list. I noticed that you made it so augement summoning is 1d3. Maybe theres a problem with the summoning rule itself? Perhaps allowing the daemons their invuln save to see if they don't get destroyed and get put back into the daemon pool? Or would something like that change to much?

Addendum: solve tiebreaker issue by deleting the option to buy lesser daemons independently. Possibly reduce price of greater daemon to reflect the slightly greater cost of setting up a basic summoning kit.

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Or maybe add to Daemonic pact that they can keep the units in play and when they get broken they are allowed their invuln save to keep them from being destroyed?

Basically, I think the lesser daemons are fine. There seems to be 2 primary strategies to their use in CSM armies.

1) As enhancers to maintain "effective activations" as opposed to total activation count. This keeps moderate to small formations as real threats even in the late game when they would otherwise be useless for anything but objective grabs. Lists that use this style typically have anywhere from 2-4 pacts on the smaller formations, and 6-8 daemons, about enough for 2 good summonings over the course of a game.

2) Pact spam relies on high activation count with small formations. Overwhelm the opponent with numbers of activations, knowing that there's a limit to how many he can deal with before some get through. The ones that do get through will be able to act effectively by using summoning. These normally have 4-6 pacts with 8-12 daemons.

BL war engines are also part of the "effective activation" approach and can fit with either style.

So... what does that leave for kit that isn't taken?

Champions
Icon Bearers
Greater Daemons

Champions are basically unnecessary for any of those styles. 4 highly-focused assault units is a pretty good boost, especially among late-game damaged formations.

Icon Bearers are even more unnecessary. The biggest strength of the daemons is putting them directly into action exactly when needed. Keeping them on the board is an active hindrance to that.

Greater Daemons are simply too expensive on net. Their abilities are comparable to assault-oriented scout titans. When we priced them (and I will take a large part of the responsibility for this), we figured the total point cost should be comparable to those, i.e. 200-225. By the time you figure in the requisite Pact, Champion and Icon Bearer, and handicap it for the need to successfully summon, you end up at about 225.

The problem is that GDs are not as effective as assault titans in play. They don't come with a separate activation like an assault titan, and they are linked to a group of infantry that usually doesn't quite match up with the GDs abilities.

GDs really need to be cheaper in terms of total kit cost.

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Lost and Damned seem to use both the above strategies on occasion, as well as another.

3) Meat shield daemons. Because daemons are tougher than most L&D units and don't cause BMs when they get killed, they can be used to greatly increase the durability of formations under fire. Even though they are more expensive on a per-unit basis, it's worth it.

Those aren't mutually exclusive, obviously, especially a combination of Pact-spam and Meat shield can both work at the same time.

Also, the greater availability/cheapness of Augment Summoning in L&D means Greater Daemons have less uncertainty. Combined with cheap formations to base the GD out of, you see them far more often in L&D lists.

To sum up, daemons in the L&D list appear to have much greater variety in strategy. I really don't see a reason they need to change appreciably.

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If L&D is more or less okay, any changes should focus on the CSM version of things. GDs and LDs are in both so they should probably not be changed.

Champions and/or Icon Bearers are then left as the place to make adjustments in the BL. They could be cheaper. Dropping the cost of either or both of those also drops the effective cost of fielding a greater daemon. If you drop both to 25 points, then the GD cost total drops to 150 points, which with a premium for uncertainty probably goes to 175-200 effective points.

I think at 25 points, you might even see people taking the characters just for their inherent abilities and not necessarily for summoning kit. An Icon Bearer with Leader, Invulnerable Save and +1MWCC for 25 points seems like a pretty good deal to me but not unreasonable. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with that as long as it doesn't become a no-brainer.

A price drop is quick, easy, makes GD summoning substantially more feasible and adds potential non-summoning use.


Alternately, you could make some sort of upgrade package that includes a large block of summoning kit for a discount, but I think that's starting to get fiddly. Unless it was necessary to stop non-summoning Icon spam, for instance, I wouldn't go down that road.

I think Neal is correct that the most effective solution to test is a point reduction on the Characters. I don't think that the abilities of the units are problematic and need changing but making it more cost effective to bring daemons out would make them more usable.

This currently exists in the World Eaters and Emperor's Children lists.

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Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

Another option to improve the ability to take GDs would be a boost to the Augment Summoning on the Icon Bearer. Just a +1 makes a big difference, shifting the odds of failure from 40% to 20%.

+2 takes that down further to only a 6% chance of failure, but at that point, you have to question why anyone would take an Icon. Just re-summon each turn since it's nearly automatic. At 20% chance to fail, the Focus is probably worth the guarantee.

I guess the question is, are these tempting combinations, with 25 point characters and +1 Augment:

• Retinue + Pact, Icon, Champion, GD in the pool. 425 points (350 + 75), 80% chance to summon. Garrison on a forward objective for the slower GDs.
• Retinue + Pact, Icon, Champion, Rhinos, GD in the pool. 465 points (350 + 75), 80% chance to summon. 30cm move for the faster GDs.
• Terminators + Pact, Icon, Champion, GD in the pool. 425 points, Teleport.
• Retinue + Pact, Champion, Rhinos, 365 points. Backup for a failed Summon by the primary formation. Only 50 points of summoning kit, and could use LD pool like a more typical daemon strategy if the primary succeeds.

To me, a combo of one primary and a backup looks tempting. That would be 75 points cheaper than current, with much more reliable GD summoning chance. Even adding in ~6 LDs to cover when the GD fails, that won't crush the activation count.


OR... as an alternate GD strategy, is this tempting...

Have ~3 formations with Pact, Champion. You may fail a summoning at a critical point with only 80% success rate, but with potentially 2 backups there's a good chance the GD could be summoned later in the turn. You might even be able to try this one with the plan of bouncing the GD between formations as needed.

However, there's a big downside when it fails and leaves your formation Engaging without the big dog. You'd need extra LDs to cover for when the GD fails.

Let's revise that to...

Pact, Champion for 3 formations - 150
GD - 75
6 LDs to cover - 120
345 points (effectively spread across 3 formations)

Is that fair for a GD that could potentially hop from formation to formation like a multi-turn Avatar? Like the above, it would be 75 points cheaper than current, with 80% summoning chance.

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Hmmm... stated that way, it seems like too big of a buff to do all of it. Maybe +1 Augment on the Champion at 50 points and a price cut on the Icon, since it would still be less important in the GD combos?

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Have you updated them recently? The Champions are still 50 and the Icons lost Leader to go with their point drop.