What! have they done away with nutters charging with chainswords? What have they left?
The BA is dead, long live the BA!
Personally I think Atmos has the right idea, I don't think he was replacing jump-packs (those should be a plenty) more like replacing the Tacs

I'd like to throw in a few things for thought, because it doesn't seem that some of the inputs have been derived in conjunction with 40K and with the latest BA codex in mind. I'm not saying that 40K should be the final arbiter on any BA list, but it seems to me that a 40K BA player should look at any Epic BA list and see commonality.

So here goes...

1. The new BA have become the penultimate combined arms assault army (Power Armored). The ability to deep strike or transport everything in their list means they get to you faster than normal codex lists with everything that they have. Landraiders can deep strike. There's a rule called "Descent of Angels", which besides being very cool sounding, allows for expedited, accurate deep striking. Some formations can also assault out of these landings (e.g. Terminators out of Landraiders) and I think Honor Guard.

2. Jet pack infantry are much more prevalent than in a standard codex chapter. The Honor Guard are very powerful, jet pack equipped elites with very short ranged shooting, but brutal close combat weapons. Yes, there is a strong desire for tournament players to drop the jet packs from assault troops and ride them in rhinos because all BA vehicles are fast. This has more to do with the tournament "meta" game than how the list is intended to operate. However, having non-jet pack assault troops should be an option because of drop pods.

3. Just about all the assault troops are close combat monsters, however, the trade off is cost. So BA can field units that can kill anything in the game. However, they have to be very, very careful about how they take casualties. So that seems to translate to me a low activation, very high mobility, strong assault sort of list. Just my take on it.

4. Dreads are in the group of units that are brutal in close combat. Like scary close combat capabiliities. Also they can fly because they can take Librarian Dreads. Very interesting combinations are possible with flying dreads (i.e. fly like jump packs).

5. The Stormraven. People are still figuring this thing out. Not having a model initially seems to have stifled a lot of the creative thought on the gaming side. Now that the model is imminent, I think we'll see people employ them more. Some of the more reasoned thought on these is that they are only going to facilitate getting low cost assault troops with a dread into assault better because they are a fast skimmer, with very decent armor. Time will tell.

6. The Baal preds (both the old and the new inferno cannon thingie) are quite popular, especially because they are fast. It seems to me that an extra 5 cm movement might be justified for BA vehicles from a fluff perspective.

7. One possible change I have thought about is gearing the Devastators more towards supporting assaults, e.g. fielding shorter ranged, harder hitting firepower like Multi-meltas. That's a bit of a drastic thought, perhaps, but something that seems thematic.

8. Death Company can be much more prevalent than in the past (like the entire army if you want).

9. Why am I sticking my nose in this? Well...I don't have a red army yet, we have two serious 40K BA players in our group that I'd like to get solidly into Epic, and I'd like to help out with this list by testing. Also, images of E&C's flying fists caused an endorphin rush upon viewing. Also BA are scary cool from an army perspective.

So, I'm tossing my hat in the ring if you'll have me.

Cheers,

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Remember Taros? We do.

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

It's for this reason that we're considering allowing BA's to use Thunderhawk Transporters, as they're said to use those to drop off Land Raiders.


I don't think we'll be doing Honour Guard, unless there's a big call for them.
Some might like to paint their Death Company formation as Honour Guard?
Their use at Epic scale would be functionally very similar (Elite CC Jump Infantry).

Don't know if we'll have non-Jump Assault Marines, it doesn't feel all that fluffy.


The two Dreadnoughts in the list are really scary in CC (Furioso) or in Engagements in general (Melta Dreadnought).

You've always been able to add a Librarian to a Dreadnought in Epic.


Not sure if we'd want to go down the route of changing basic unit stats.


I hadn't considered this... perhaps the Death Company could be 1+ formations in the army list, rather than 0-1???

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That'll work, though might it be more costly than a teleporting LR formation? Just a thought.



The only significant difference I can see between HG and other assault formations is the preponderance of what would be MW attacks at either FF or CC range. So, the basic trooper has a melta gun equivalent and a power weapon. As formations go, they are not cheap by any measure, but extremely effective at what they do.

I'm just offering that for consideration as they are not just assault troops in shiny suits.



After more thought I agree and don't think it's in any way a deal breaker.



Okey dokey.



Do you mean in your BA list or the standard SM list? Also, do the current Libby Dreads have Jump Pack?



Not a problem, it was just a thought.



That would work. I think it would be important from a list perspective that the consequences of taking an all DC list should be very apparent.

_________________
Remember Taros? We do.

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

The rationale for Land Raiders deep striking in 40k is that they're being dropped off by Thunderhawk Transporters. So at Epic scale it makes more sense to have the actual Thunderhawk Transporters, rather than a special rule.


I do agree that, unlike Vanguard Veterans, there is possible justification for their inclusion.



Standard SM list.

I don't think we'll do a literal Jump Pack equipped Librarian Dreadnought though, as that comes from its psychic power, IIRC, and the psychic power of Librarians in Epic is Smite.

[/quote]
Well, they're expensive so you wouldn't get many activations...

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Ok, no worries.

Where is the most current version of the BA list posted?

Cheers,

_________________
Remember Taros? We do.

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Here: viewtopic.php?f=73&t=19815

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

1+ DC companies would allow for monster Thawk assaults if you put in 2x DC for a total of 8 units. The difference in price between that and current tricked out Thawk options is ~150 points and I'd say it's easily worth every point.

That can be addressed, obviously, but that's the potential issue that immediately leaps to mind.

Neal: Agreed, but it's not an insurmountable problem, I think.

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Blood Angels are noted as being heavy users of, very specifically, the Thunderhawk Transporter.

In exchange, I'm considering dropping the Landing Craft.


Fair point.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Well, the Thunderhawk transporter is the thing FW came up with because they couldn't make the landing craft. What would be the cost, in a game, of a Four Thunderhawk formation ?

Doesn't The landing craft look like a pretty able LR dropper already ?

re Honour Guard: Are you talking really about the Honour Guard (the Blood Angels version of the Vanguard Veterans)or are you talking about the Sanguinary Guard?
If Sanguinary Guard i would give them Speed 30cm with Jumpacks, CC5+, FF5+ (or 4+/4+) and Macro-weapon in the Notes.

A Jumppack Furioso Librarian Dreadnought would be cool, but we wouldhave toinvent anew datasheet forit as Jumpackas a Blood Angel psychic power makesnosence in Epic as the Librarian can use it only on himselfe.

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Well, as I'm not a BA super aficianado at this point, I could have my terms slightly boinked. I know that I am not referring to the Sanguinary Priests who are individuals, <just checked> and you are correct, it is the Sanguinary Guard I should have been referencing, not the Honor Guard.

So, all apologies on the mix up, however the song remains the same.

_________________
Remember Taros? We do.

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Actually you're getting muddled there; Vanguard Veterans are jumpacked 1st Company Veterans, Honour Guard are different and rarer again and make up a Chapter Master's personal bodyguard, normally equipped with artificer armour, bolt and power weapons.