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2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar

 Post subject: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:03 pm 
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Consider the following situation (Section 2.1.2 below for reference).

An eldar player elects to retain the initiative with their Avatar, using the commander ability to combine with a guardian formation. Should the initiative test be take with or without the -1 retain penalty as the 'combined' formation has farsight.

The after that, the player retains for the 3rd time, this time using a guardian formation to combine with an aspect formation. Is this test at initiative 1 (from aspects) or 2 (guardians) before modifiers?

Quote:
2.1.2 Commanders
Some units and characters are noted as being
commanders. Commanders can order up to three
formations of troops to follow them when they make an
assault, as long as all the formations have at least one unit
within 5cm of a unit from the commander’s formation.
Make a single initiative roll for all the formations,
counting a -1 modifier if any have Blast markers. If the test
is failed then the commander’s formation receives a Blast
marker and must take a hold action, but the other
formations are unaffected (and may take an action later in
the turn).
If the test is passed then all three formations may take an
engage action. Treat the three formations as if they were
a single formation for all rules purposes for the duration
of the assault. A 2D6 roll is used to resolve a combined
assault. If the attackers lose then each formation is
broken. If they win then each formation receives a
number of Blast markers equal to the casualties it suffered
in the combat.


Thoughts? And is the second situation unique to the Eldar?


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 Post subject: Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:09 pm 
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Quote:
An eldar player elects to retain the initiative with their Avatar, using the commander ability to combine with a guardian formation. Should the initiative test be take with or without the -1 retain penalty as the 'combined' formation has farsight.

Unsure, ask again later.

Quote:
The after that, the player retains for the 3rd time, this time using a guardian formation to combine with an aspect formation. Is this test at initiative 1 (from aspects) or 2 (guardians) before modifiers?

The test is taken at the initiative rating of whichever formation is using the commander ability.

In this case it's the Guardian formation so the initiative test is taken at 2+.

Quote:
And is the second situation unique to the Eldar?

Guard Commanders could issue orders to join a combined engagement to Titans.

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 Post subject: Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:15 pm 
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Mephiston wrote:
Consider the following situation (Section 2.1.2 below for reference).

An eldar player elects to retain the initiative with their Avatar, using the commander ability to combine with a guardian formation. Should the initiative test be take with or without the -1 retain penalty as the 'combined' formation has farsight.



Nope because unless a rule specifically says they are a single formation when the test is taken they are not they are multiple formations with the commander ability affecting them.

The commander rule is precise in that they only count as the same formation when they are fighting the engagement, not before. Its even precise in its language - if the test is passed all three as in seperate formations take an engage action - then after this they combine into one formation for the purposes of resolving the actual fighting.


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 Post subject: Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:44 pm 
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I'd say use the Initiative of the formation issuing the order, and only include bonuses like Farsight if they are included in the Commander's formation. There are two reasons for this.

First is KISS. No figuring out whether to use the best or worst initiative, etc.

Second is that if the activation is failed, the other formations are free to activate later. This means, for instance, that an Init 2+ formation can't use an Init 1+ formations value to attempt to activate, but the Init 1+ formation can still activate later in the case of a failure. That would be the same as the 1+ formation "lending out" it's Init. Same with Farsight. A Farseer could potentially use it's Farsight ability twice in a turn if the Aspects failed to Command it. This affects the value of the ability in unpredictable ways.

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 Post subject: Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:01 pm 
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Quote:
So this is going to get an FAQ?

Or at least an AQ. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:04 pm 
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Rug wrote:
These are good points, and I am won over to the "you can't do that" side. But for the sake of discussion I'd point out that:

a) You can use another command ability more than once each turn, "Leader".
b) Staying with "Leader", the way it behaves for Space Marines also affects the value of the ability.

So this is going to get an FAQ?


Leader is used more than once per turn, and is worth a different amount to Space Marines due to interaction with ATSKNF, but it always behaves the same way for a formation. It doesn't affect other formations depending on the situation. This simplifies the costing process immensely compared to the potential complexities of allowing Commander to "borrow" other formation's traits.

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 Post subject: Q
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:28 pm 
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I agree that borrowing initiative abilities or even another formations initiative isn't desirable, even if that what was intended with the farsight rule.

Does this need an FAQ entry considering it's not appeared as an issue before?


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 Post subject: Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:00 am 
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I would agree with others that it is the 'commander' formation that is activating; the other formations are only added if the activation is successfull. So you only consider the initiative and abilities of the formation that is activating.

However once the activation is successfull, the formations combine and are then considered a single formation until the end of the assault resolution; so the various attributes and penalties of all the formations get included; so you add together all BMs, Inspiring Characters etc.


Last edited by Ginger on Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:09 am 
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I agree, the Eldar player should have to take the -1 for retaining if they are doing so with a formation that does not have Farsight on its own. The initiative should be that of the formation as well, not the initiative of other formations it's looking to "commander" in.

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 Post subject: Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:50 am 
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Hope this helps,highlighted what I think is relevant.

Quote:
Q: Can a Commander give Assault
orders to a several formations even if
the Commander himself isn’t in charge
range?
A: Yes. The Commander issues the orders
for the Combined Assault before the charge
move is made. If he issues the order
successfully (ie, passes his action test),
then his formation and the other two are
treated as one large formation for the
Assault
.

This would mean that neither the
Commander nor any units from his
formation would need to get within 15cm
of the enemy so long as at least one unit
from the combined formation does so. Note
that the Commander and the units in his
formation would be bound by the
coherency rules, so would need to end the
charge with at least one unit within 5cm of
one unit from at least one of the other
formations.


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 Post subject: Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:54 am 
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My reading of the FAQ is that only when the action test is passed are the formations treated as 1 so the Farsight couldn't be used for the -1 in this situation.


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 Post subject: Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:01 pm 
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I think that one clear's it up too.....so is a farsight FAQ required to say you can only use it if the formation calling the combined assault is the lead formation?


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 Post subject: Re: 2.1.2 Commanders and the Eldar
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:25 pm 
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No, I think you're approaching it from the worng direction. I think a Commander FAQ is required to clarify that the initiative test is taken on the Commander's formation's initiative, and only using abilities (e.g. Farsight) from that formation.

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