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Workings of AA in Epic: Armageddon
BlackLegion
 Post subject: Workings of AA in Epic: Armageddon
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:37 pm 
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So.  I found several patterns how AA-weapons seem to work in E:A.

1st:
If a groundbased weapon has an AA value its range is shortened by 30cm.
Exampel: Hydra Twin Autocannons
In Wh40k the Hydras Twin Autocannons have the same range as a Battlecannon. Thats 72" = 75cm in E:A
But because it has an AA-value too its range is shortened to 45cm.

2nd:
If a weapon is mounted on a flyer and has FixedForwardArc the range is the same as if on a ground-vehicle.
If a weapons is mounted on a flyer and has a wider fire arc (say left arc or 360? arc) the range is shortened by 15cm.
Example: Thunderhawk
TwinHeavyBolter 30cm FixedForwardArc
TwinHeavyBolter 15cm Left/RightArc

3rd:
The AA value seems to be identical with the AT-value of the weapon. If the weapon has no AT-value the AP-value is used but increased by one.
Exampel 1: Hydra TwinAutocannon: AP4+/AT5+/AA5+
Exampel 2: Thunderhawks TwinHeavyBolter: AP4+/AA5+

The Eldar break this pattern!

Firestorm Grav-Tank:
Firestorm Battery: AP5+/AT5+ but AA4+ instead of AA5+

Nightwings:
BrightLances (which should really be labeled TwinBrightLances because a single BrightLance has AT5+) has AT4+ but AA5+ instead of AA4+

PhoenixBomber:
PhoenixPulseLaser: AT4+ no AA-value.

VampireRaider:
VampirePulseLaser: AT4+ no AA-value




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orangesm
 Post subject: Workings of AA in Epic: Armageddon
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:16 pm 
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Ok. ?you have established what appears to be a pattern. ?But what is the problem?

The problem is that AA units are unable to provide an umberlla matching their background capabilities because they have weapon ranges that are for ground combat as well.  A solution to this is to make the AA weapons just AA weapons or instead of improving their AT/AP decrease it.




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Workings of AA in Epic: Armageddon
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:48 pm 
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Well i spelled it out so that people could better work out appropiate stats for AA-capable weapons. :)

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Workings of AA in Epic: Armageddon
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:17 pm 
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I think that BL's suggestion on the Epic forum to have split weapon values for AA weapons is a very quick and easy suggestion

So give a Hydra, for example,

Hydra Twin Autocannon AP4+/AT5+ 45 cm
AND
AA5+ 60cm

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Workings of AA in Epic: Armageddon
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:29 pm 
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I'm with pixelgeek. 100%.

This should be incorporated into the rules review. No ifs, no buts.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Workings of AA in Epic: Armageddon
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:35 am 
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It would be part of a fairly wide ranging review and require a lot of testing.

Currently (to use the Hydra autocannon as an example) its
45cm AP5+/AT6+/AA6+
it would become
60cm? (Maybe 75) AP5+/AT6+
AND 45cm AA6+

Would need the re-pointing of a fair number of units.

Further air would become a lot more expensive as now common strike ranges would exceed flak defence ranges.

The solution I've pumped for for over a year now is an overhaul of the air system. You can implement it at various 'levels'. The most complete-everything-I-suggest one is immediate disengage for aircraft (though you leave models in place to show a unit has come under air attack), no range on aircraft weapons (you measure AA defence to the units under attack) and aircraft AA values replaced by an attack and defence rating like FF and CC. there's a bit more to it than that but those are essentially the three levels as well.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Workings of AA in Epic: Armageddon
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:36 am 
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TRC: A Hydra is AA5+

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Workings of AA in Epic: Armageddon
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:31 am 
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No a twin Hydra Autocannon is 45cm AP4+/AT5+/AA5+
A Hydra Autocannon is 45cm AP5+/AT6+/AA6+

I guess a regular Autocannon under these ideas would be 45cm AP5+/AT6+ And 30cm AA6+

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orangesm
 Post subject: Workings of AA in Epic: Armageddon
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:05 pm 
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it would become
60cm? (Maybe 75) AP5+/AT6+
AND 45cm AA6+

No the other way around
CODE
Long-Barrel Autocannon  60cm AA5+
                              and  45cm AP6+/AT6+

The idea being that the AA vehicles are designed for that role and are only used for ground attack when nessecary.

The goal is not to reduce the range of the AA weapon, but to increase it.  The concern some people have is that Aircraft with weapons with equivalent ground ranges would be able to out range the AA.  Looking through the AA, much of it has a reduced range compared to what its capabilities are outside of its Epic statline - be it background or 40k.  If in the chase of the Hydra you give it what it has - Long Barrel Autocannons and no the same Autocannons the infantry are carrying then you get a better AA vehicle.

I think the reason they did not give AA vehicles the nessecary range is because then they would become too good at AT and AP 'out-ranging' them.  But if you make it so that AA is good at what it is suppose to be good at and not tank hunting (SM Hunter), killing infantry (IG Hydra), or everything compared to the 'standard tank' (Ork Flakwagon) then it is justified.

Requirements to have AA.  
1) Vehicle must be designed for that purpose.
2) Any AP or AT attacks from the AA weapon are at a reduced to hit (-1) and a reduced range (-15cm).

Number 1 keeps large formations of infantry from downing aircraft with basic heavy weapons fire, while number 2 represents number 1.  I doubt a hydra is going to be very effective against armor or infantry as it is not designed to track armor or infantry.  The Hunter is another example of this.  For the Orks I would almost argue that they can not lower the Flakwagons guns to fire at ground targets. (I did not go into the Firestorm, but a lot of the same goes).




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Workings of AA in Epic: Armageddon
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:33 pm 
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Anti aircraft guns are incredibly effective anti infantry/light vehicle maybe even tanks.

Check out modern use against infantry and of the course the world famous '88 of WWII.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Workings of AA in Epic: Armageddon
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:43 pm 
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@orangesm: No Chris has it right. Reread the first post.

Under the split-stats the twi Hydras Twin Autocannons would look so.
2 x Hydrs Twin Autocannons 75cm AP4+/AT5+
AND--------------------------------45cm AA5+

Explanation: The Hydra has to fire straight into the ait. So the horizontal range is shorter than if it would fire on ground targets.

Why weapons with an AA-value had the range shorterned originally i  don't know. Perhabs to allow flyers to enter and leave the table without permamenty coming under fire. And because most fylers have acrappy armoursave (6+) a great deal would be shot down before they can do something useful.

MY regular opponent regulalry fields lots ofHydras or Hunters so that my airforce raplidly diminishes and losses effectivity. In the 3rd or 4th turn they rarely make a dent or they even don't pass their actiontest because of hordes of blastmarkers.




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Moscovian
 Post subject: Workings of AA in Epic: Armageddon
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:12 pm 
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Not to add more confusion to the discussion, but has anyone ever discussed using AA against skimmers?  More appropriately, should skimmers be susceptible to AA attacks?

I think if we're discussing revamping air rules that is something that should be on the table. :devil:

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Workings of AA in Epic: Armageddon
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:12 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ Jul. 15 2007,07:43)
QUOTE
Ehy weapons with an AA-value had the range shorterned originallyi  don't know. Perhabs to allow flyers to enter and leave the table without permamenty coming under fire.

That is it. It was actually far too easy to create overlapping Flak that made it impossible for aircraft to enter or leave without getting shot to sh*t.

So instead of splitting the weapon stats the ranges were reduced in general.

In general the air rules received too many changes at too quick a pace to test them accurately and we're seeing the end result of that now

Chris, have you posted a detailed description of your air changes anywhere?

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Workings of AA in Epic: Armageddon
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:54 pm 
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I did on the old SG forum, don't know if I have a copy with me here in BD. However Gavin (Biggles) may have a copy, or I might have stored it online. I shall have a gander.

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orangesm
 Post subject: Workings of AA in Epic: Armageddon
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:58 pm 
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Ok I think it should go the other direction, not reduce the AA but make the AA only useful as AA.  I would not reduce the AA range below its current level.

I expressed concern that there would be an artifical reduction of aircraft ranges to make AA units survivable against such attacks.




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