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Assault & CC hits
fbruntz
 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:59 am 
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I've got a question about the experimental rules of October 2004.

Let's imagine an Abattoir launching a assault against a formation of 2 Warhounds. The Necron War Engine is in base contact with one of the two Warhounds. The other is at less than 15cm.

The Necron player decides to use all its attacks in CC (6 standard attacks at 2+ and 3 TK(d3) at 2+).
Results : 4 standard hits and 4 TK hits.

How do you distribute the hits? Only against the Warhound in contact or can you distribute the remaining hits against the other Warhound?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:25 pm 
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Only against the warhound in base contact.

The change to the MWCC hit allocation is for the main section of the rules, 1.12.  The WE rules on allocating CC hits, being an exception, would still take precedence when dealing with WEs.

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fbruntz
 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:00 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Oct. 04 2006,14:25)
QUOTE
The change to the MWCC hit allocation is for the main section of the rules, 1.12.

In the main rules, yes, but also in the experimental rules?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:56 pm 
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Actually, now that I think about it, the change to MWCC is to 2.2 in the MW rules.

But yes, Jervis stated explicitly that the WE CC/FF hit allocation restriction is not changed by the change to 2.2 and the WE allocation rules would still take precedence.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:32 pm 
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(Hena @ Oct. 04 2006,18:32)
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My addition. If a 2 TK (d3) hit the target. Then the dices are rolled and you get 3 and 3 damage. Isn't the both warhounds destroyed in the process. As the experimental allows MWs to proceed outside of the CC?

No.

The rules have 2 restrictions in them - MWCC attacks in 2.2 and WE assault allocation.  They are similar but not the same rule.  The change to the MWCC allocation is in reference to 2.2 only.

The experimental rules do not change the WE targetting/allocation rules.  They remain in effect.  WEs must still declare CC or FF for their assault attacks and they can only be allocated to appropriate targets.

Is the idea behind experimental rule to allow minimum or maximum of damages to be dealt?


Neither.  It has multiple purposes.

With respect to the MWCC hits, it was taken out because it was no longer needed with the change to the allocation rules.  It was originally introduced to curb the power of MWCC attacks.  When the allocation changed to the defender's control, MW attacks naturally lost some ability because the defender can put them on any eligible target as they see fit.  They can be dumped on low-value units or if there are more hits than target units they can even be doubled up on the same target, essentially wasting them.

With respect to the multi-TK hits the idea was to reduce the amount of "wasted" TK capacity when firing at multi-WE formations.  It wasn't necessarily supposed to maximize it, just make it a bit more efficient.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:36 pm 
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They can be dumped on low-value units or if there are more hits than target units they can even be doubled up on the same target, essentially wasting them.


I do think this can be a problem, when you're attacking a small formation your opponent just rotates them around and around, with a poor Rhino taking 4 MW hits. :)

I dunno, it's seemed odd to me that you were allowed to cycle them in that manner... why is it that all MW hits aren't allocated as a single block, seperate from the normal hits? Is it that powerful?




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:07 pm 
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Well, the fastest way to rack up MW hits in that quantity is via assault.  It was felt to be enough of a problem that Jervis put the "only base contact" rule in for MWCC.

I don't know that it would be a big balance problem but it's sleeker to do it like the experimental rules say.  Since TK is technically a subset of MW, having special rules that do one thing (special MW allocation) and then another set of rules to counter the first exception (different TK allocation) is just begging for confusion.  In the experimental rules, MW are just another hit and allocated normally.  Only TK have an exception.

====

And if you're worried about wasting 3 MW hits because you've hit every unit in a formation 3 times already, I think you're being a bit greedy.   :D

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:24 pm 
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Nah I'm thinking of small (4 unit) formations... it's very easy to rack up say 3 normal & 2 macro hits... effectively this makes smaller formations significantly less vulnerable to MW attacks than larger formations...

It's a smallish concern at any rate since there are certainly benefits to the system.




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CAL001
 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:44 pm 
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While we are on the subject of assaults. I have one question on am example that hasnt' come up in a game yet. I have a formation on overwatch, that is engaged by an enemy formation, does the movement trigger the overwatch before the combat occurs?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:05 pm 
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Yes.  Resolve all the effects from the fire before beginning the assault.

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:43 am 
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I think it was to balance the fact that WE can barge into combat and also choose to use FF even when in BtB (well at least I think they can).

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:30 pm 
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Any non WE can allocate the second TK attack outside of base to base range (as per experimental rules) as there is equal amount of damage done to target WE (with one TK hit) as there is DCs. Why WEs couldn't do this?


You're looking at it through your understanding of the current rules.  Because MWCC allocation is now restricted, you are reading that the change grants permission for MWCC attacks to be allocated completely freely.  It does not grant permission. It is not a conceptual change to be applied across the rules as necessary.  It only removes that specific 2.2.6 restriction on allocating MWCC attacks.

The current rules have 2 restrictions for WEs allocating MW hits in assault -
1) the MWCC restriction in 2.2.6 which applies to all units
2) the CC/FF restriction specific to WEs

The 2.2.6 restriction is redundant in the case of WEs because the WE rules are more restrictive.  Removing 2.2.6 does not change the restriction of the WE rules.  They remain in effect.

===

Maybe this illustration will help:

Law 1) Group 1 and Group 2 cannot do X.
Law 2) Group 2 cannot do X or Y.

What happens if you repeal Law 1?  Is Group 2 allowed to do X?  No.  Law 2 is still in force and still restricts Group 2.

Repealing law 1 is not the same as saying "Everyone is now allowed to do X."  Law 2 is still in effect and still restricts Group 2 from doing X.

Law 1 = 2.2.6
Law 2 = WE rules
Group 1 = normal units
Group 2 = WEs

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