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Inquisition v2.1
Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Inquisition v2.1
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:52 pm 
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(Hena @ Jan. 11 2007,12:53)
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Ok, heres some question based on purely reading (and not playtesting). If someone figures out where to get 6mm female troops, then I'll most likely have a player to test these out :).

Great to have some new feedback!

1. Possibility of SR6. This is something I'd work to remove. Now granted it's hard to get but still. I wouldn't give any army to have better than 5 without very good explanation. So perhaps base the SR to 3.

You can ONLY get SR of 6 if you take a pure chamber militant army and ONLY if facing the appropriate foe. That means no aircraft, no titans, no regular inquisition troops such as inquisitors or stormtroopers.

The reason it is there is that I wanted each Ordo to have some slight advantage versus their speciality, and I wanted some compensation for taking say a pure GK army.

2. Support henchmen. Ability to re-roll any dice is rather good. Not to mention a slowing down factor due to need to keep notes on the amount of re-rolls used each turn.
It is good, but I find that it is reasonably balanced by the limited space aboard gun-cutters and the tendancy for them to die miserably very quickly!

The bookkeeping is more of a problem. So far I just keep some little dice next to or on their bases and take them off when they use the re-roll. That said, I'm open to suggestions for some kind of different "spangly" ability to represent the support nature of support staff!

3. There is several times MW + sniper combination. Granted that most of these are close combat, but still.
All the Deathwatch Sniper weapons will be actually on their boltguns/heavy bolters in the next edition, and I think the assassin thing is going to be completely changed.

4. Assassin. While some are interesting others are not. MW+sniper combo exists in here as well. Due the amount of special abilities and that these are not needed really, I'd removed them.
Ah. Well, I'm going to change the assassin. I think the principle is fine, but the wide range of abilities is rather pointless. I think I'm going to bite the bullet and just make a single effect for assassins, or two effects - one overt (eversor, vindicare, vanus) and one subtle (callidus, venenum or cullexus).

5. Fortresses. These look quite good for the cost. I'd probably up the cost and downgrade them a bit.
They've gone up in points several times, but now I think they're about right - they are respectively very slow and immobile. However, I would consider bumping them up a little more. I don't think either of them is worth as much as a warlord titan, so 800 is the highest I would go. The major issue I have with the Drop Fortress is the whole "drop it in on turn three to deny the BTS goal" because it is so damn difficult to kill but I don't think it is a major problem.

6. Gun cutter. That is a monster. 3 AA (of which 2 os 45cm) weapons and 2DC with 5+RA save. Seems overly good as an aircraft for imperials.
I like the armament, but I would consider dropping the autocannons down to 30cm - the aircraft weapons seem to have shorter ranges. Still, it is meant to be a good aircraft! Keep it in mind in comparison with a Thunderhawk, which has more AA all round (note the front arcs of the AA weapons) better transport capacity and a 4+RA.

Then I'd probably make the army to take at least some amount IG or marines or sister as IMO the Inquisition shouldn't field an epic sized army alone.
Why not? I can give you examples - 60 Deathwatch deployed in "Xenos". 100 Grey Knight Terminators deployed against Angron on Armageddon. Three full Companies of GKs in "Grey Knights", as well as easily company-level deployments of Sisters on Armageddon. And the inquisition deploying hordes of stormtroopers/navy assault troops/kasrkin has plenty of examples.

The list is versitile. You can just take a single inquisitor and hordes of stormtroopers if you like. You can take nothing but GK Terminators if you like. Both have happened in the background!

I think forcing a player to take allied or inducted troops such as imperial guard is wrong - it should be an option, but NOT compulsory.

EDIT: Thanks for the feedback, BTW! Appreciated, and most of these are things I've been intending to change.

I'll be making a new list soon, but I think I will be breaking it up into three seperate lists, one for each Ordo - same rules, just break it up so it is easier to understand.
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ragnarok
 Post subject: Inquisition v2.1
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:21 pm 
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I have managed to feild an =][= lead deathwatch arm once, and I have to say that the gun cutter wasn't that useful.

Turn one it (tried to) strafe an ork cult of speed.

Turn two it air assaulted the same cult.  The =][= and his warrior henchmen ran out and died and the gun cutter then exploded due to being on the losing side.  :(

For me the more deadly flyer was the death watch assault lander, which dumped a whole lot of hurt on my enemies mega warband (he still thinks that a 30-40 strong warband is a good idea, even arfter I have creamed it twcide with clipping assaults), but even the assault lander isn't that good, as it eaves a lot of small units out of place.

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mageboltrat
 Post subject: Inquisition v2.1
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:27 pm 
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(Hena @ Jan. 11 2007,21:15)
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I disagree with this. Inquisition shouldn't be better at strategy than marines. No part of the empire should. I understand that you want to compensate the GK list. But this is not the way I think. Much better to make sure that people use other units as well (since it makes the army more believable).

Grey Knights are better at fighting daemons and chaos than Space Marines, and just as good against anyone else. Slightly worse than marines when they are fighting with other branches of the imperium as they have to mess around with chain of command.

Sounds fine to me.

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orangesm
 Post subject: Inquisition v2.1
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:22 am 
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I have to say that the Inquistion should not be better than Marines or even nessecarily Imperial Guard at strategy.  An Inquistor is not going to be a master military tactician as a Space Marine Company Captain or Chapter Master are.

If a Grey Knight force should be represented in 3000 points then it should be particularly effective against deamons, then Chaos forces.  But no stronger than normal Space Marines against anyone else.

An Inquistors force is a mixture of various Imperial Forces, drawing on Space Marines  or elite Imperial Guard Regiments for special missions (read Elysians) or mass Imperial Guard forces to create distractions while they go after the real prize and Ordos Forces for particular task like killing a particularly nasty deamon, alien general, or traitor commander.

Possibly to make it 'fluffy' an Inquistorial force may have to claim the 'Break their Spirit' objective to achieve victory, or they must eliminate any enemy Supreme Commander,  lacking that nominate 2 Commanders they have to kill.

Simply making Inquistorial forces a translation of the 40k armies will not work and will not produce the feel of an Epic force.  Possible list design requirments from not being able to take certain units without the appropriate supreme commander choice or if a certain unit is taken then others can not be taken or if a certain number of a particular type (say >50% GK) then other units are unavailable and a GK supreme commander must be taken.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Inquisition v2.1
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:21 pm 
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I'd say that the best way to represent the different Ordos would be with three different lists (Ala 40k in fact!).

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Inquisition v2.1
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:38 pm 
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(Hena @ Jan. 11 2007,16:15)
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I disagree with this. Inquisition shouldn't be better at strategy than marines. No part of the empire should. I understand that you want to compensate the GK list. But this is not the way I think. Much better to make sure that people use other units as well (since it makes the army more believable).

Ratty's answer is pretty much what I was going to say... From a background standpoint, Deathwatch and Grey Knights are surely at least as good as Space Marines - they ARE Space Marines. More than that, each is comprised of elite troopers even compared with regular Space Marines, and are especially trained to deal with the daemonic or the alien respectively... so surely should have an advantage over any other Chapter?

From a game-balance point of view, believe me, taking a pure Chamber Militant army is a serious disadvantage. As an example, the Grey Knights don't have any AA (except the minimal amount on Thunderhawks). The extra strategy rating doesn't make them overpowered.

In my experience it really doesn't come up all that much either. It just adds a little bit of flavour and "super-elite" feeling to the chamber militants.

As long as one unit is alive the formation counts as having leader or inspiring or zyx?

I'll have a look again, but there really wasn't anything I liked as much as a simple re-roll. I might well clear up the wording to simplify bookkeeping, however (for example, at the beginning of each turn the Inquisitor's formation gains a number of re-rolls equal to the number of support staff in the formation)

Why have them at all? Surely not all entries in the 40k armylist need to exist in epic. Assassins would be one very easy one to cut out.
True, and I would be ameanable to the suggestion. However, they are an iconic part of the 40K universe, I don't see any real reason to avoid them. I will revamp and simplify them considerably, however. I quite like them... I think an assassin could well have a profound effect even at the Epic level, but as an "event" that is inflicted on the enemy rather than a unit that moves and fights.

One thing that occurred to me is that the Assassin could be made into an upgrade for an Inquisitor (so the points are added to the Inquisitor, which would be a balancing factor to an "unstoppable" attack), perhaps as a very special "weapon"? Actually, that might work - it would cut out most of the special rules of the assassin.

At least downgrade that Eye thing to be equal of vulcano cannon instead of better. And remember that the moving one is more durable than warlord.
Okay, I might do that. It is more durable, but it carries about half the weapon load and it is vastly less powerful in an assault, even with the two extra DC. I have certainly had them die on me! I would consider bumping them up to 700 points each (I would rather overcost than undercost) especially since you can have one per thousand points...

It is however fighter-bomber. Which means that it can do intercept. That is a very good bonus since the durability means that it can intercept quite readily within the range of opponents AA.
Good points. You know, I might just change it to a "Bomber" and then make the Glavian Pilot a character upgrade it to "Fighter Bomber". How about that?

I still think 45cm is too long-ranged, but it just feels "wrong" to have 30cm autocannon. What do you think?

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Inquisition v2.1
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:27 pm 
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(orangesm @ Jan. 11 2007,22:22)
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I have to say that the Inquistion should not be better than Marines or even nessecarily Imperial Guard at strategy. ?An Inquistor is not going to be a master military tactician as a Space Marine Company Captain or Chapter Master are.

I agree in part. They aren't better than Marines at strategy - they are "only" SR4.

You can ONLY get better than marines if you take a pure, undiluted Chamber Militant force against their preferred enemy.

And in that case, I would say that a Grey Knight Commander would be better at strategy against Chaos than your average Space Marine Commander. Not much, but it is there.

Also note the -1 if you have any IG allies.

If a Grey Knight force should be represented in 3000 points then it should be particularly effective against deamons, then Chaos forces.  But no stronger than normal Space Marines against anyone else.

Are we still talking about SR? Because a pure GK force is the same SR as a normal Space Marine army unless you are facing Chaos. And note that unlike Codex Marines, GKs lose a point of SR if they take aircraft or titan support.

If you are talking sheer combat power, there is indeed a rule that makes them more effective against daemons.

An Inquistors force is a mixture of various Imperial Forces,
It doesn't have to be. This list allows you to take a mixture from various imperial forces, but doesn't force you to. Why shouldn't you be allowed to take a pure-GK list if you wanted to?

Possibly to make it 'fluffy' an Inquistorial force may have to claim the 'Break their Spirit' objective to achieve victory, or they must eliminate any enemy Supreme Commander,  lacking that nominate 2 Commanders they have to kill.
A possibility, but messing with victory conditions is iffy. Much better to have some specific scenarios (which I will make at some point - I definately want an "Exterminatus!" mission!  :laugh: )

Simply making Inquistorial forces a translation of the 40k armies will not work and will not produce the feel of an Epic force.
I have tried very hard to make the Epic lists have an "Epic" feel. Still, most Epic armies are based on the 40K troop types!

Possible list design requirments from not being able to take certain units without the appropriate supreme commander choice or if a certain unit is taken then others can not be taken or if a certain number of a particular type (say >50% GK) then other units are unavailable and a GK supreme commander must be taken.
There are plenty of such restrictions in the list. But I don't want to make too many restrictions. Why should you have to take a GK supreme commander? Codex Marines don't have to.

Are there any specific restrictions that you are thinking of? Bear in mind I do not want to outlaw the possibilities of pure-chamber militant armies, and I don't want to force anybody to take chamber militants either.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Inquisition v2.1
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:31 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jan. 12 2007,09:21)
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I'd say that the best way to represent the different Ordos would be with three different lists (Ala 40k in fact!).

Yes, I'll be splitting the list into three lists. Right now, it is essentially three lists that share the Universal Forces and the allies. But three lists will be easier to handle, and easier on the eyes!

I've heard rumous that alienhunters won't have its own codex, however, and there will simply be an "Inquisition" codex. (That'd make me happy! Three of my 40K armies would get a new codex at once)
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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Inquisition v2.1
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:04 pm 
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(Hena @ Jan. 12 2007,13:44)
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One point is SR means quite a lot. For example Tyranids with SR1 against Inquisition with SR6 ...

True, but (again) in that specific example, the "Inquisition" forces are Deathwatch. No Titans, no Land Raiders, no barrage weapons, no AA apart from interceptors, more or less lack of AT/MW/TK ranged weapons and no formations larger than 4 stands + transport!

Seriously, I've tried all three Chamber Militant forces alone, and it is a real challenge. The only one that might not deserve SR5+1 is the Sisters of Battle (either from a fluff perspective or balance as that is a more rounded mini-list) but I honestly don't think it is a problem.

Aside from anything else, Marines vs Tyranids, the Marines are usually going to go first. +1 SR pushes that probability to almost certainty, but I'm not sure that's going to have that much effect on a game.

I've never not this to be a real problem in playtesting, nor has anyone complained about this after playing. That said, I have to admit I've not played Tyranids. If it transpires to be an issue I can change it, but I doubt that.

I'd avoid bookkeeping like plague really :) Tyranids have spores to keep up and that's simple, but still annoying.

Uh, I know - I don't like bookkeeping. Tyranids have that horrible your formations change every turn thing which looks like a nightmare. Still, just keep the re-roll dice near your formation and you're okay.

... And to ranges, remember that many places have shorter ranges on planes that ground units (such as heavy bolters).
I know. However, fixed forward weapons are usually the normal ranges compared with defensive flack weapons (e.g. the thunderhawk has 30cm bolters on the front, but 15cm bolters on the wings).
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Pulsar
 Post subject: Inquisition v2.1
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:10 am 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ Jan. 12 2007,17:31)
QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Jan. 12 2007,09:21)
QUOTE
I'd say that the best way to represent the different Ordos would be with three different lists (Ala 40k in fact!).

Yes, I'll be splitting the list into three lists. Right now, it is essentially three lists that share the Universal Forces and the allies. But three lists will be easier to handle, and easier on the eyes!

I've heard rumous that alienhunters won't have its own codex, however, and there will simply be an "Inquisition" codex. (That'd make me happy! Three of my 40K armies would get a new codex at once)

i'm a big fan of the Inquisition lists (i'm in the middle of painting a grey knight only army) , and would really like to help you develop them in well rounded armys. :cool:

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Inquisition v2.1
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:27 am 
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Well... great! The very best thing right now would be playtesting. While there are niggles that I know about and am working on a new version, we really need playtesting to check that what works in theory applies on the battlefield.
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