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Tactics Repository & Discussion

CyberShadow

Post subject: Tactics Repository & Discussion

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 5:07 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9350
Location: Singapore

Right. Well, I have had this sitting around for a while, but I decided to put together some rules and ideas for campaign/warbands in EpicA (believe it or not, inspired by the recent Path to Glory for Fantasy and the old Rogue Trader/Relm of Chaos books).

Anyway, the rules are here:

Crucible of Champions

I would be really interested in hearing what you guys think about these rules. They are not finished yet, and only the section for creating the warband, champion, retinue and followers are online. The rest will follow. This will include how to fight with the warbands, units which do not survive, new followers, rewards and gifts for the champions and his path to a Daemon Prince or Chaos Spawn - and the subsequent rise of a new champion.

Right now, I would like to hear about:

- Most interestingly for me, I would like to hear about any warbands that you guys roll up and put together. I cant even imagine all the possibilities that are present, so a few 'typical examples' would be great. It is difficult to get this balanced, but also variable! Even if you dont want to play this system, roll up a warband and let me know what you get.

- Any 'power combinations' that are potentially possible given the random tables - although this is less of a problem as the player actually has little control over the results.

- Any thoughts or comments about the system generally. It will obviously be linked to the current Chaos force list, and so could change as this does, but I dont expect the overall rules to change a lot.

Thanks. So, to start off, here is the warband that I rolled as a part of the rules set themselves. Unfortunately, the warband came out quite well, so I will be generating a second one later to illustrate the variation what can be achieved:

Champion and Retinue:
Plyshtarin - Chaos Marine Champion, with the Leader, First Strike and Immune to Panic abilities
Eight Chaos Marine Units
Five Chaos Rhino transports

Alpha Formation:
Six Noise Marine units
Three Slaanesh Rhino transport vehicles
Eight Chaos Marine Dreadnoughts

Beta Formation:
One Chaos Traitor Arch Heretic unit
Eleven Chaos Traitor units
Seven Big Mutants

Gamma Formation:
Five Chaos Marine Bike units

Zero mutation points, and ten advancement points.

_________________
https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.

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nealhunt

Post subject: Tactics Repository & Discussion

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 8:18 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

I'm eager to see the progression tables for mutations and adding new units, as well as how you intend for casualties to come back over the course of a campaign.

I rolled up 7 or 8 warbands and calculated rough points just for comparison purposes. It seems most come out a bit over a thousand points, mostly the 1100 to 1300 range. The highest one I rolled was about 1600, and the lowest was a bit under 1000.

It seemed as if an awful lot of CSMs forgot to bring their rhinos, though. I'd like to see the die range for that expanded.

Based on the training scenarios I've done, I'd say that's a 30-45 minute game.

It certainly seems as if it would be fun to run a leage/campaign off of it. If I could convince some of my friends, I would probably even give them enough figs to build a warband.

_________________
Neal

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Tactics Repository & Discussion

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2003 10:56 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9350
Location: Singapore

That is very interetsing, thanks. I am very pleased that the warbands generated end up at a fairly focussed points value, as a 1000 point against a 1600 point game would not be too biased.

As for the issue of transports, I will look at this again. Thanks for your analysis. Are there any details available of a warband or two that you generated?

I will get the next parts of this online as soon as I can. Thanks again.

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Tactics Repository & Discussion

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:16 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9350
Location: Singapore

Perhaps I can answer your points in a bit more detail now.

Casualties will all be simply rolled at the end of the game. They are permanently removed on a D6 roll of a 6. Other results bring them back for the next game. I could sort out out a 'recovery period' but this would add paperwork and complicate things.

Followers are rolled on the original follower tables, and the number is decided ona dice roll, modified by how well you did in the previous game. The same system for rewards and mutations.

This dice roll modification has cause a fair few headaches. I started with the simple 'one point for a win' system that Path To Glory used, but this seemed too simplistic for me. In the end, I have a system based on percentages, which should reward smaller warbands who take on significantly larger ones, and allow newcomers and underpowered warbands to fight and get something in return.

Chaos Marines have transports two thirds of the time. The only increase would be to to give them transports on a 2+, but I felt that this would pretty much make it very likely that Marines had them, and would reduce the variety. Is it that you feel that four in six are bad odds, or that you had a bad spell of dice rolling?

A 30-45 minute game for a beginning warband seems about right. I am quite happy with that. Thanks for your comments, I will get working on the next part of this.

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nealhunt

Post subject: Tactics Repository & Discussion

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:57 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

>> Followers are rolled on the original follower tables, and the number is decided ona dice roll, modified by how well you did in the previous game. The same system for rewards and mutations.

Did I miss this system somewhere? Is there a setup for trading in advancement points for followers? For gaining mutation points or rewards?

Basically, I guess I'm asking if the stuff linked to is only about half the rules as you eventually intend to have them.

Re: Marine tranpsort. I just thought that 1/3 of the CSMs slogging it out on foot was too many. Marines and CSMs pretty much always come with transport in my experience. 1/6 seems more in line with that.

_________________
Neal

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Tactics Repository & Discussion

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 6:11 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9350
Location: Singapore

No, sorry. That should have come under the heading of 'coming soon'.

That is part of how the final section will work. Advancement points wont be traded in, but if you get a certain amount you are entitled to a modifier on your dice roll for the mutation/reward and number of follower rolls. Anyway, this will all be clarified a bit later.

Yes, what is currently on line is the first of three. Section two is quite minor, giving some scenarios and any changes when playing games, and section three will go into the changes to the warband as a result of the games. Sections two and three should be completed together, as soon as I can convert them from notes on my PDA to an HTML file.

I see what you mean about the Rhinos. I am not sure whether to go with 2+ or 3+ for transports now. I dont know if a 2+ will result in almost all Marines having transports. I think that I will leave it at 3+ for now, but I will keep your points in mind. Thanks.

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Gaunts Ghost

Post subject: Tactics Repository & Discussion

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:35 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2003 6:20 pm
Posts: 81

I've just rolled up two warbands on your warbands table, this is what I got:

The Buccellarii of Leavenor Gompertz, Aspiring Prince of Tzeentch

Champion
Leavenor Gompertz, Aspiring Prince of Tzeentch, on bike with Macro Weapon

Retinue
Chaos Bikes 7 units

Warband
Formaton 1 Chaos Traitors 8 units no transport

Formation 2 Chaos Traitors 12 units no transport

Formation 3 Chaos Marines 8 units in Rhinos

The Excretia of Mucius Scaevola, Grand Lickspittle of Nurgle

Champion
Mucius Scaevola, Grand Lickspittle of Nurgle
A Plague Marine with increased unit speed of +5cm

Retinue
Plague marines 9 units no transport

Formation 1 Chaos Marines on bikes 8 units

Formation 2 Chaos Cavalry 11 units

Formation 3 Chaos traitors 9 units no transport

I like the die roll army list system. It could be very useful to provide opponents for solo wargamers like myself. My only quibble is that it did seem to produce pretty standard troop types, or was it just my unlucky d6 again? May be more chances to get a demon or some other freaky thing would be good or do you feel this would unbalance the lists?

Best wishes

Gaunt's Ghost

_________________
Never wrestle with a pig, you both get covered in mud but only the pig enjoys that. ?MARK TWAIN

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Tactics Repository & Discussion

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 3:35 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9350
Location: Singapore

Interesting, and thanks for the report GG. You do seem to have got a fair number of quite 'standard' foot sloggers. The more interesting and unusual stuff is in the 50-66 end of the table, so it should be available 1 in 3 of the times. Daemons actually have two dice rolls for them (55 and 56) and the standard Marines only have three (35, 36 and 41). I guess that the difference is that you can roll Chaos Marines and Havoks, and even Terminators and Cult Marines and they seem the same, even though they are not.

You also seem to have rolled traitors a lot. Both of your Champuons also only havea single ability rolled, instead of two. Is this intentional?

I think that the only extra 'freaky' stuff that I could add would be 'home grown'. The only other stuff in the standard lists are the heavier equipment and I think that rolling one of these would unbalance a list a little.

I am happy for people to add to the tables in whatever way they feel that they want to, but I dont want to do this until I have the basic ideas set up properly.

Anyway, thanks for checking it out and letting me know.

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Tactics Repository & Discussion

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:06 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9350
Location: Singapore

Right, your comments started my interests going again, so I decided to roll up five warbands (each Chaos power and undivided). Here they are:

1 ? Tzeentch

Retinue: Cult Marines (Thousand Sons) [9], 6 Units [3], Land Raiders (x3) [6]
Champion: Leader, First Strike (CC) [32], Immune to Panic [42]
Followers: 3 Groups [1]
Group 1 ? Chaos Traitors [22], 9 Units [3], Land Transporters (x3) [5]
Group 2 ? Cult Marines (Thousand Sons) [45], 6 Units [4], Rhinos (x3) [4]
Group 3 ? Chaos Traitors [22], 9 Units [3], Land Transporters (x3) [5]
Advancement Points = 6
Mutation Points = 0
Formation 01 ? Retinue and Champion
Formation 02 ? Group 1 Traitors + Group 3 Traitors
Formation 03 ? Group 2 Thousand Sons

2 ? Khorne

Retinue: Chosen Terminators [11], 3 Units [1], No Transport [4]
Champion: Leader, Invulnerable Save [63], Scout [15]
Followers: 5 Groups [6]
Group 01 ? Big Mutants [24], 7 Units [3], No Transports [4]
Group 02 ? Sacrifices [54], 6 Units [4], Land Transporters (x2) [5]
Group 03 ? Daemons [56], Flesh Hounds [6], 4 Units [2]
Group 04 ? Sacrifices [54], 5 Units [3], Land Transporters (x2) [5]
Group 05 ? Chaos Traitors [23], 12 Units [6], No Transports [2]
Advancement Points = 10
Mutation Points = 0
Formation 01 ? Retinue and Champion
Formation 02 ? Group 1 Big Mutants + Group 5 Traitors
Formation 03 ? Group 2 Sacrifices + Group 3 Daemons + Group 4 Sacrifices

3 ? Nurgle

Retinue: Chaos Bikes [3], 6 Units [2]
Champion: Leader, No ability [12], Inspiring [36]
Followers: 4 Groups [3]
Group 01 ? Chaos Cavalry [26], 9 Units [3]
Group 02 ? Cult Marines (Plague Marines) [45], 3 Units [1], Rhinos (x2) [3]
Group 03 ? Chaos Traitors [22], 8 Units [2], No Transport [2]
Group 04 ? Dark Lord and Retinue [66], Nurgle, Chaos Marines, 10 Units [6], No Transport [2], Leader, Macro Assault weapon [14]
Advancement Points = 8
Mutation Points =0 (Dark Lord Mutation Points = 0)
Formation 01 ? Champion and Retinue
Formation 02 ? Group 4 Dark Lord and Retinue
Formation 03 ? Group 1 Chaos Cavalry + Group 3 Chaos Traitors
Formation 04 ? Group 2 Plague Marines

4 ? Slaneesh

Retinue: Chaos Marines [6], 7 Units [3], Rhinos (x4) [5]
Champion: Leader, Extra Attack (cc) [34], First Strike [32]
Followers: 4 Groups [3]
Group 01 ? Chaos Traitors [22], 12 Units [6], No Transports [4]
Group 02 ? Big Mutants [24], 8 Units [4], No Transports [3]
Group 03 ? Traitor PDF [15], 13 Units [5], No Transports [1]
Group 04 ? Chaos Marine Bikers [32], 5 Units [1]
Advancement Points = 8
Mutation Points = 0
Formation 01 ? Retinue and Champion
Formation 02 ? Group 4 Chaos Marine Bikers
Formation 03 ? Group 1 Chaos Traitors + Group 2 Big Mutants
Formation 04 ? Group 3 Traitor PDF

5 ? Undivided

Retinue: Cult Marines (Raptors) [10], 4 Units [1], No Transport [2]
Champion: Leader, First Strike [31], Commander [56]
Followers: 4 Groups [3]
Group 01 ? Cult Marines (Raptors) [44], 6 Units [4], Land Raiders (x3) [6]
Group 02 ? Chaos Marine Bikers [32], 6 Units [2]
Group 03 ? Chaos Marines [35], 10 Units [4], Rhinos (x5) [4]
Group 04 ? Obliterators [62], 2 Units [2]
Advancement Points = 8
Mutation Points = 0
Formation 01 ? Retinue and Champion
Formation 02 ? Group 1 Raptors
Formation 03 ? Group 2 Chaos Marine Bikers
Formation 04 ? Group 3 Chaos Marines + Group 4 Obliterators

Points to note:

- I have an inability to generate a warband that does not include Chaos Cultists. This is all nice and fluffy, but they are my least favourite units and I would rather have Traitor PDF! It seems that GG did not have this problem, so I will assume that it is either the luck of the dice, or some higher power trying to tell me something.

- I generated seven groups of Marines, and only one of these left their Rhinos in their garage. On the basis of this, I think that I will leave the odds of a transport as it is for now. Although, please continue to let me know your feelings on this.

- GG, after you saying that you didnt get any Daemons, my Khorne warband ends up with a group of Daemons (Khorne Flesh Hounds) as well as two groups of Sacrifices. I guess that this is also the luck of the draw.

- Most of the warbands are made up of the more basic unit types. While this is not necessarily a problem, it does edge towards warbands which feel the same way. I rarely rolled over 51 to determine the type of unit. Again, on papre this really should not be a problem and one in three rolls should have more colour. But, the theory and the practice dont seem to match up right now. I will try to roll up a few more warbands and see whether this trend continues.

Again, thanks for your feedback guys.

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Legion 4

Post subject: Tactics Repository & Discussion

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:11 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA

I always try to get my Chaos infantry in Rhinos or L/Raiders, except for Beastmen. I let them run around on the flanks causing trouble and consternation ! :;):

_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Tactics Repository & Discussion

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:56 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9350
Location: Singapore

OK. I managed to knock up another five warbands last night.

1 ? Tzeentch

Retinue: Chaos Marines [6], 6 Units [2], Rhino (x3) [3]
Champion: Leader, Inspiring [35], First Strike [31]
Followers: Four Groups [4]
Group 1 ? Cult Marines (Thousand Sons) [45], 3 Units [1], Rhino (x2) [5]
Group 2 ? Big Mutants [24], 8 Units [4], No Transport [4]
Group 3 ? Chaos Marine Bikers [34], 10 Units [6]
Group 4 ? Chaos Hounds [12], 16 Units [12]
Advancement Points = 8
Mutation Points = 0
Formation 01 ? Retinue and Champion
Formation 02 ? Group 1 Thousand Sons
Formation 03 ? Group 2 Big Mutants
Formation 04 ? Group 3 Marine Bikers + Group 4 Chaos Hounds

2 ? Khorne

Retinue: Chaos Marines [8], 6 Units [2], Rhino (x3) [4]
Champion: Leader, Supreme Commander [66], Commander [56]
Followers: Four Groups [5]
Group 01 ? Chosen Terminators [61], 5 Units [3], Land Raider (x3) [5]
Group 02 ? Chaos Hounds [12], 13 Units [9]
Group 03 ? Land Raiders [64], 3 Units [3]
Group 04 ? Dark Lord [66], Undivided, Chaos Marines [7], 7 Units [3], No Transport [1], Leader, Invulnerable Save [62]
Advancement Points =8
Mutation Points = 0 (Dark Lord Mutation Points = 0)
Formation 01 ? Retinue and Champion
Formation 02 ? Dark Lord and Retinue
Formation 03 ? Group 1 Terminators + Group 3 Land Raiders
Formation 04 ? Group 2 Chaos Hounds

3 ? Nurgle

Retinue: Chaos Marines [6], 5 Units [1], No Transport [2]
Champion: Leader, Commander [61], Thick Rear Armour [51]
Followers: Five Groups [6]
Group 01 ? Chaos Dreadnoughts [51], 8 Units [4]
Group 02 ? Cult Marines (Plague Marines) [44], 7 Units [5], Rhino (x4) [4]
Group 03 ? Land Raiders [64], 1 Unit [4]
Group 04 ? Cult Marines (Plague Marines) [45], 6 Units [4], Rhino (x3) [5]
Group 05 ? Big Mutants [24], 5 Units [1], No Transport [3]
Advancement Points = 10
Mutation Points = 0
Formation 01 ? Champion and Retinue
Formation 02 ? Group 1 Dreadnoughts + Group 3 Land Raider
Formation 03 ? Group 2 Plague Marines + Group 4 Plague Marines
Formation 04 ? Group 5 Big Mutants

4 ? Slaneesh

Retinue: Chaos Havoks [4], 5 Units [3], No Transport [1]
Champion: Leader, Save +1 [53], Reaper Autocannon [44]
Followers: Three Groups
Group 01 ? Mutants [13], 9 Units [1], Land Transporter (x3) [5]
Group 02 ? Traitor PDF [16], 12 Units [4], No Transport [1]
Group 03 ? Chaos Traitors [23], 7 Units [1], No Transport [3]
Advancement Points = 6
Mutation Points = 0
Formation 01 ? Champion and Retinue
Formation 02 ? Group 1 Mutants
Formation 03 ? Group 2 Traitor PDF + Group 3 Chaos Traitors

5 ? Undivided

Retinue: Chaos Havoks [5], 3 Units [1], No Transport [2]
Champion: Leader, Sniper [26], None [11]
Followers: Four Groups [5]
Group 01 ? Sacrifices [54], 3 Units [1], Land Transporter {x1) [6]
Group 02 ? Big Mutants [24], 10 Units [6], No Transport [2]
Group 03 ? Chaos Predators [53], 2 Units [1]
Group 04 ? Chaos Predators [52], 2 Units [1]
Advancement Points = 8
Mutation Points = 0
Formation 01 ? Champion and Retinue
Formation 02 ? Group 1 Sacrifices + Group 2 Big Mutants
Formation 03 ? Group 3 Predators + Group 4 Predators

Comments first - The Tzeentch warband is pretty much what I hoped they would turn out like. A nice variety of units, with some Tzeentch specific units as well. The Khrone one is what I would like to use!

After thinking about these, and the previous warbands, a bit more, I came up with a few things that will probably be altered.

- Is it me, or do most warbands end up being lead by Chaos Marines? It seems that, while this is fairly in keeping, almost all the warbands that I put together are lead by about 6-8 units of these guys. Looking at the table, there is a 16 out of 36 chance of this happening, that is four nineths, almost half. I think that I will reduce the chance of Chaos Marines as the retinue to 7-8 and increase the chances of another retinue unit.

- Marine transports. nealhunt mentioned that there was a fairly high chance of Marines not bringing their Rhinos. I have thought about this a lot. On the one hand, Marines should have Rhinos a lot, on the other I dont want this to be automatic. Therefore, I have decided to increase the chance of Rhinos being available, but only for the retinue. I think that this is quite good, as it means that the leaders are more likely to have transport, which is the way that it should be.

- Gaunts Ghost mentioned that there was a fairly low chance of getting anything more exciting in the warband. I am starting to see what he means after a few warbands. I will expand the 'top end' of the table to make Dreads start at about the middle, around 44.

Thanks for your comments guys. Any views on these changes?

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nealhunt

Post subject: Tactics Repository & Discussion

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 6:54 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Have you considered using a points-purchase system like the Path to Glory stuff?

You pay for the chance to roll. The roll determines what you can buy. Then you have to buy the units. If you don't like your roll, you can pay to adjust it, or drop it and pay for a new roll.

Transport could then be added as a cost.

Just an idea.

Any progress on the advancement points?

_________________
Neal

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Tactics Repository & Discussion

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 12:36 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9350
Location: Singapore

I did think of the point system, and I was tempted by it. I really wanted the progression and generation to be as fair and balanced as possible, while still being different from others.

For some reason, I just dont get on with the point system as much. I dont really know why, maybe one of those irrational things. I will introspect to work it out.

The next section will be with the next update, I will try to find time over the weekend to write it up.

Thanks.

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Serps

Post subject: Tactics Repository & Discussion

Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 12:06 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:47 am
Posts: 388
Location: Sydney, Australia

Hi. There's heaps of topics on this board about the relative worth of the various units in E:A and I thought I'd make a place where I could put them all for everyone to read so they're not lost to the mists of time

I have made a website which you can view here. It's not 100% complete, but I have loaded the IG units at least (you can view an example of what I'm doing). If you have any comments about a particular unit or use of a formation or upgrade (e.g. whether Stormtroopers or Sentinels are better protection for an artillery company) then feel free to enter the text into the website for other people to see. If this thing succeeds, I'll see whether I can get it hosted somewhere more permanent, like, here!

If you have any comments, let me know!

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Legion 4

Post subject: Tactics Repository & Discussion

Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 4:51 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA

We have talked about something like this before ... of course E:A has not been released yet, but many are playing games and getting some good input. ? :;):

However, I went to your site and I think you are on the right track ... keep up the good work !

_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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