Another question about war-engine transports. Can you use the attributes of passengers to affect the war-engine activation?

My specific question is, would a Tau unit with co-ordinate fire in a war engine transport (basically a Manta) on the table allow the Manta to use co-ordinate fire? Now given the fluff I’d say a Manta probably ought to have co-ordinate fire in it’s own right, . . . unless that is unbalancing (question for EA Tau Topic).


The most relevant comment I can find is (but the example is a transport embedded with the formation):


A supreme commander in a transport (spacecraft, aircraft) off-board is allowed to have their re-roll applied to the formation they are in.
Everything (?) about a broken formation inside a war-engine transport seems to affect combat resolution (BMs specifically).
Transported units count towards the number of units in resolving an assault. I assume that you would also include the contributions of any Inspiring passengers.
Units in a transport lose their ZoC. The Scout rule has a specific bit that talks about losing its longer ZoC if in a transport. Special rule or clarification
Passengers in a war-engine can disembark and shoot on a shoot action so they are involved in that.
Passengers in a war-engine that is assaulted can dis-embark as part of a counter charge.
Co-ordinate fire leads to combining shooting actions. BMs on other formations are included in the action roll for the initiating formation. Formations can do their sustain, move-shoot, double-shoot actions in any order.
Formations that are rallying get to use their Leader characteristic when in a WE transport (or off board); but then they are doing their own rally roll.
An Init 1+ formation inside a transport uses the transports Initiative to activate. But here the initiative is not a unit characteristic.
Commander is a similar rule and a commander can order an assault even though his own formation cannot make it to engage range. The commander does use the initiative for his own formation.

So a follow-up question that might answer my initial query. Can a supreme commander (or a commander) in a war-engine transport (not their own formation) use his ability to launch a combined assault. The commanders formation is considered part of the war-engine formation for the duration of the assault. I realize that this follows on from a successful activation roll.

Also just to check. I’d assume a skimmer popped up behind cover should get a -1 to hit modifier since they are partially obscured.

I'd say they should be able to use their supreme re-roll or initiate a combined assault.

Not sure on skimmers and popping up, will be curious to see what others think.

Found some extra guidance on the popped up and cover. Basically if the distances to intervening terrain are equal both units get the -1 to hit modifier.
The discussion point in the FAQs suggests that the intention of the rules is that a skimmer can claim benefits of being in cover it they have moved into the cover and taken a dangerous terrain test. Would this principle apply to the permanently popped up support craft/skimmer? I don't think a permanently popped up skimmer can get down to dangerous terrain to actually take a terrain test?

OK finally got to it. Manta does not block line of sight.

I guess I'm coming around to asking the same question as Kyrt.



On further queries. This is turning into a long 5 min warmup.

Seems to imply that if I load some extra troops into a war-engine it is more difficult to break? Or maybe still only requires a number of BMs equal to the original total DC for the formation.
If it were in an assault or during a move-shoot action (eg due to overwatch fire) then the passengers would get included(?).

First of all bear in mind the difference between rules in the core section (eg transported units count towards he break point) which is before war engines are introduced. Transported units are part of the same formation, so this is just a clarification of the existing rules - ie that being transported doesn't suddenly reduce the formation size.

I am a abut surprised by the fact they are allowed to launch a combined assault from inside a war engine as they would have to have the opportunity to activate themselves rather than the war engine.

As for mantas, indeed i didn't get a reply to my query on what popping up means (if anything) when it comes to movement.

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For formations being transported by a WE you need to read 3.1.3 which includes,



No using a formation transported by a WE to do any action except part of the WE's activation.
You cannot activate a formation on board a WE as a separate activation it has to be activated when the WE does as part of it's activation. Even if it dismounts when the WE activates it cannot then take an activation of it's own (that turn).

Yes which is why I say I'm surprised commander works - where does it say that?

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Commander (from a formation aboard a WE transport) des not work, from 3.1.3
highlighted the relevant parts.



Players seem to be confusing the "part of the same formation" by only reading part of the sentence.

They are only considered part of the WE formation when the WE takes an action that allows it to engage or move (so the transported formation can dismount.A sustain fire or overwatch order, as examples do not allow this) or if the WE is engaged itself.

Yeah, I'm asking a question here not saying it is one or the other.
Expect I am pushing the rules a little but maybe it is what the rules say.

If the war-engine makes an engage action, and the passengers dismount, they are all treated as one formation.
If they are one formation then a commander attribute allows two other formations to join them (if with 5cm etc).
Here the sequence is a little going back in time. The WE has moved and passengers disembarked to count as one formation.

If a Tau war-engine moves and shoots, and the passengers dismount to join the shoot, they are treated as one formation.
If the formation has co-ordinate fire then two other formations can be added in as separate Sustain Fire, Move-Shoot, Double-Shoot actions.
Those actions happen independently under Tau rules.

At this stage I'll go with pretending the passengers in the WE are off-board and cannot affect anything.
This is an extremely conservative rule reading approach. If the WE were engaged the BMs on the passengers get included.

I don't really know how you can make it work within the rules though. Part of the deal in getting transport is that you lose your right to take your own action and do all the things that you could do with that action. Not to mention, it could technically also be possible if you allowed this to transfer the ability from a unit with 2+ initiative onto the manta's 1+

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I have to agree with dptdexys here. It is the Manta that activates, not the troops inside. I believe that all the formations using co-ordinated fire have to be activated together, so my reading of this is that this would only be valid for the WE to activate the co-ordinated fire, not the troops (and special abilities) that it carries. Note also

• The Supreme commander re-roll may be used for the WE transport because he is in the same location as the manta. However being off-table means that his re-roll may not be used for other formations
• "Commander" can only be used for formations within 5cm of the commanding formation. If the "Commander" was carried inside the WE, then this rule cannot be used because it is the transport that activates, not the formation carried (which contains the commander). The FAQ is also very clear that "Commander" cannot be used between on-table and off table forces.
• The Tau co-ordinated fire rule works in a way that is very similar to "Commander".
  Quote:
  Some units are noted as being able to call in coordinated fire. These units can order up to two other formations within 15cm that have
  not taken an action this turn, and which are not broken, to follow their own formation when they take an advance, double or sustained
  fire action.
  Because they have to be 'within 15 cm', this mean that both formations must be on-table - so no WE an use this kind of rule when off-table, and the Manta cannot use 'co-ordinated fire' on-table as it does not have that ability.