Black Crusade, whatever. I don't know where I can find and print out the most definitive, standard, Chaos army list for Epic A. I feel like there are a variety, and i want something closest to the early days of Epic A as possible. I saw that hoping its compatible with 2 Chaos Infantry sprues.

Can someone post a link?

Well you can go to here for the latest NetEA Black Legion list. (Page 87 of the Compendium)

Or for a UK slant on things look here.

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NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Thanks!

I really hate all of these lists.

Chaos is an expensive army to play. And to think I need 8 Chaos infantry stands to make a single retinue turns my stomach. Then my options are limited too.

I also hate the summoning too. Hate it with the Eldar Avatar too. You know what I miss? Looking over the battlefield and seeing daemons and/or an avatar advancing over the battlefield. Its an opposing site. Now they just sit on the sidelines in hopes they get called in during a CC?

And what if I want some Slaanesh allies or a small Khorne formation? Nope.

Oh I know I'll just make up my own. Screw the whole list thing. Can't believe its gotten to this. I mean, I have some extra minis and would like to be able to use them, but its quite an investment to just follow any list if you want to use the actual minis and not proxies. If the retinue was smaller, like 6 stands, and I could FIELD daemons or even some odds and ends like trolls or whatever. Whatever bitz from the past. I mean if we can have non-existent units like Death Wheels then why not ones that were made like Trolls and so forth?

Anyway, I know I have bitched about this before, but understand the flavor that comes with making a list but this just makes me want to play a different game and be done with it.

Nobody is forcing you to use the lists exactly as they are, in non tournament games I dont think many people would have any problem with mixing and matching bits from chaos lists if done thematically rather than tactically.

Wanting lists to follow sprue contents from 2 epic versions ago and 22 years ago isn't really viable.

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NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Why would a chaos spare marine list (e.g. black legion) not be based around retinues of chaos space marines? You can use figures from the old and new chaos sprues, chaos squats work fine mixed in as chaos marines and several people on taccom have good looking arming using regular space marines painted in chaos colours.

You can add cult (slaanesh etc) marines as infantry. Or you can play the red corsairs list that has cult demon engine packs as well. Or you can use the specialised lists, like thousand sons.

If you want trolls etc they are big mutants in the LatD list.

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AFK with real life, still checking PMs

We adapt and change.

My Trolls are now with my LatD list as Big Mutants along with a load of Ogryns which weren't getting painted for my IG.

I have taken to placing Daemons on bases with my Characters / Lords to help spread out my models and show them as some one different. However the basic Black Legion lists still allow you to have Berserkers/Thousand Sons/Plague Marines as an upgrade. And you don't just have to have one type of daemon with the revised rules. Plus you can upgrade your units with an Icon Bearer to keep the daemons on the table.

Oh and my CSM are 4 to a base to stretch them out with the Chosen scouts being 3 to a base.

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www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Ha! Yeah. Amazing how long I've been playing these games.

The thing is, and I know the production lines have stopped spinnng some time ago, but honestly thearmy lists should try and make do with as much as they can from the last version of the sprues sold by GW. At the time they were like $20+ for 2, and no are prob even more second hand.

There's an economy to this game, and the availability for these minis is shotty. I think its better to have smaller formations to give people more tactical options than to force them to hunt down the proper minis in order to meet a large minimum formation size. And then from there, offer some help to these guys by allowing them to select more support formations so it is cheaper for them to field an army.

I hate proxies. I am sure many do. And I want my minis to look like the ones I've seen on GW's site and rulebooks.

Who the hell are the red corsairs? Can't I just have mutants in all the lists?

See, this is where all this bugs me. I think people think that there is all this freedom and creativitiy picking out a list and making up an army based on it. All a list is is a snap-shot in time. And to say that these units are only going to appear in this number with these formations is actually very restricting.

Rather than having 5 different lists, if I had just one master one, I could pick out what units I have available from my collection. If I happen to have those that would make up a Black Crusade, or a Slannesh, whatever, then great. I'll give it a name. But with an out of print game dependent on getting miniatures at expensive prices second hand is already a pain in the ass enough. And worse, It sucks more that you might have units available that don't appear on the particular list you are trying to work on.

So I honestly think these just rips the excitement and creativity from building something that is yours.

I know most peeps would just say, customize the list to your liking, or add tweaks here and there, but I am a pretty official guy, and if I wanted to go that route, I wouldnt refer to any list on the net, I would make up my own.

You know, I just mean something like this:

Warmaster + Transport if you want it
Retinue + Transport if you want them

6 Space Marines (Option to add more stands if you want) + Transport if you want. Upgrade any to Noise Marine or Berserker for x points

2 Terminators (Option to add more if you want) + Land Raider(s) if you want

4 Cultists, 4 Beastmen (Option to add more)

3 Predators (Option to add 1 more if you want)

2 Land Raiders (Option to add up to 2 if you want)

4 Bikers (Option to add up to 2 more if you want)

Greater Daemon

4 Lesser Daemons (Option to add more)

etc etc

I dont need a fancy name for this. Its just Chaos. I can call whatever army I want thereafter.

And Chaos has always been a really colorful army made up of a variety of units and so on. All these lists have done is break all that apart. I dont think we should be segregating. Encourage the creativity.

I really can't see how unit sizes that small would be workable.

The design of EA was always to have this diversity of list and the fact that it is still going 6(?) years after it was last officially supported with growing tournament scenes in at least 8 countries shows that the system works.

Getting hold of models through ebay or converting isn't really a huge obstacle at 6mm

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NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

You do realize the army lists are developed specifically for tournaments and to help having a balanced "pick up game" between non regular opponents.
The rulebook states you can change whatever you want from the rulebook, that includes rules,units stats,formations and lists . All you have to do is agree with your regular opponents, as the book says "it's your game" change whatever you need to for it to work for your group.
I know most groups use the army lists for almost all their games but again,as the rule allows it, just agree with your opponents to adjust them for suitability to your collection. It could take the form of extra support choices or smaller core formations, as L4 says "Do What Works For You".

By the sounds of it, the list that would suit you best maybe (does the name really matter?).
They are a more flexible chaos marine list with added daemon engine options. I don't know the fluff behind the name, it's a more modern renegade chaos marine group.

The other point you make (e.g. it's just chaos) is one i sympathise with, but that is not how EA list development generally works. Chaos is no different here, look at imperial guard – there is not an 'imperial guard' list, there's a still legion list, a death krops list, a siege master list, etc. etc. Eldar are all done by craftworld. I enjoy playing with the black legion list, even though I have a personal preference for deamon engines and more colourful things.

The formation sizes in your suggestion are far too small to work in EA, however (2 terminators?). That looks like the contents of the EA chaos sprue, not an effective list.

edit: have you looked at epic 40k? can't remember the chaos list from there but it sounds like it might match what you want, albeit in a slightly different game system.

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GW split the chaos list up back in 2nd edition 40k..... you could always play 'pure' chaos marines or 'pure' daemons or whatever, the split was to introduce more unit types (and you know... maybe sell a few?) and also provide a better theme and help prevent min-maxing to certain extents

Have you considered netepic? From this thread and others you've posted it seems to me you want the experience of a game of SM/TL more, even if the E:A lists resembled a kitchen sink I still think you'd be disappointed as the rules have changed drastically and the game plays very differently....

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Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

I would also suggest taking a look at the NetEpic rules. They're a lot closer to the sort of army that you seem to want to build, so I think that they would suit you better. Like you, I've been playing Epic for years, and NetEpic suits my model collection much better than EA, especially for Chaos, so why not opt for that set of rules instead of EA?

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Well, to be honest I got bored and after rebuilding my Sm2/TL armies and playing a couple of games, I thought I would use some leftover minis to do something with my Epic A books (I have the main rulebook and swordwind, but havent kept up with the game in ages). So I did a Space Marine, Ork, and Eldar force with what I have, and decided to try and use what I had for making a Chaos one.

I dont want to come across like the lists should be tailored to what I have available, but to be honest, one of the things that bothered me during Epic A's development was the cost to play. The economies of fielding an army was expensive when minis were available from GW, and now even more costly getting them off ebay. So I just thought since the chaos sprues were sold in 2s for $20+, the lists should try to maximize those sprues as much as possible. Then I find that some of the minis on that sprue dont appear on the board unless I summon, which means I have to hope my formations that are can make it to CC, even if I didnt want to do that. Thats why I was saying the detachments should be smaller. But I guess at this point peeps expect formations to be able to deliver a certain amount of firepower or cc in order to be balanced, which I can understand, since they move as a whole and fire on the same target. Another reason why I dislike these rules.

So like I am trying here, its just failing. And I havent tried NetEpic, but to be honest I already have AT/SM1, SM2/TL which I play currently, and a horde of Epic 40k stuff. I just wanted to do something Epic A specific.

But I guess I can chop up all the lists out there, form my own master one, and call it Chaos KTG17 Style and its all good.

Honestly I hate that.