Some discussion regarding mixed initiatives within a formation came up in the Emperor's Children thread. It was mentioned by a few people that it isn't much of a problem. I'm just curious as to what the exact effects are or could be. With some of the feedback regarding Grey Hunters, I've been contemplating various design concepts for the Space Wolves and want to be clear on a mixed initiative issue up front for one of the concepts in particular.

e.g mixing Blood Claws (I 2+) with a base Grey Hunters(I 1+) formation.

Is it correct that the initiative is based on the original base formation type? Are there any rules regarding it I've missed?

Cheers all!

For the Space Wolves.

From a fluff perspective. I think the Initiative used should be that of the most experienced unit as the less experienced troops would take directions/orders from, and follow the lead of the more experienced troops.

From a rules perspective. In many games, troops are allowed to use the initiative/leadership of leaders present within their ranks (or within a certain radius of them) due to the experience and greater tactical knowledge of the leader. This is a similar circumstance where you have a group (who have their own leader within their ranks) who has greater experience leading a group who is less experienced. From the overall battlefield view that Epic represents, I think it is fair and is a pretty straight forward guide to follow. It could be abused if you allow any and all formations to "team up" with whomever they wish, however if you limit that within the design of the list, with some playtesting, it shouldn't prove to be too much of a problem.

I guess to counter my own points above, there is no immediate precedent set with this by commanders within Epic as they typically provide bonus other than initiative modifiers.

In theory, you could have a formation with "high-Initiative units" and "low-Initiative units" where all the high-Initiative units are destroyed. At that point, you have to keep track of which low-Initiative units originally came from the high-Initiative formation.

For example, an Aspect Host in Wave Serpents could have all the Warriors destroyed, leaving only the Wave Serpents. At that point, the Serpents look just like Serpents that were attached to a Guardian Host. However, the Aspects' Serpents would be Initiative 1+, while the Guardians' serpents would be Initiative 2+.

Same thing for any other formation with elite troops mixed with line troops, such as Fire Warriors with attached Crisis Suits or Blood Claws/Grey Hunters.

In practice this is rarely, if ever, a problem. It's very uncommon and, if it does happen, it affects so few formations that it's easy to keep track of.


Yes. All army lists to date list Initiative by formation, not by unit type. Formations activate. Individual units do not.

A large number of inexperienced troops can easily overwhelm the command and leadership abilities of even the most hardened veterans. Having a Space Marine standing in front of an Imperial Guard infantry company shouting orders doesn't make them better at communicating orders to those out of shouting range. It doesn't make them better at setting up and breaking down their crew serve weapons. It doesn't impart in them a tactical sense of what to do in the absence of direct orders. It doesn't mean the IG were trusted with the overall battle plan or have any strategic sense.

I agree the "leaders keep forces under better control" is a common conceit in wargames. However, it's not necessarily true.

I agree with what you are saying....troops from different units, continents, worlds or even star systems face many challenges that would not allow an easy leadership....including cultural, langauge, technology, knowledge, professionalism and many others...all these would hamper one units attempt to lead/control another unit, even one that was far less experienced.

.........but I think you missed what I was saying. If you note, at the start of my post I said "For the Space Wolves". The Space Wolves are a small unit of highly trained and indoctrinated elites who know and do nothing other than wage professional war. The less experienced of these warriors looks upon those that are more experienced with awe and as something to one day aspire to. Throw into that mix their professionalism, I really don't think an experienced Space Wolves unit would have any trouble leading or commanding a less experienced Space Wolves unit.

I think that still depends on the situation.

Several squads of Grey Hunters with Blood Claws? They would probably have no problem keeping the whippersnappers in line. There are lots of examples around and a good chance that any psychological momentum towards berzerking can be defused. A mixed formation that included multiple GH units could easily be justified as 1+ Initiative.

A couple heroes with Blood Claws? Maybe not. A handful of veterans is probably not going to overcome the collective psychology of the Blood Claws. Once they start down that path, the heroes will be hard pressed to deflect them. 2+ Initiative would be justified despite the addition of a character upgrade or two.

Ok

So what do you do in this case? i.e the two wave serpents scenario

I understand keeping track, but do you roll individually for each part of the formation? Do you use the initiative of the most numerous unit type? What if they're evenly split? It doesn't actually seem that simple.

Umm... no.

The initiative is determined by the formation. Not the composite units. Wave Serpents, in the above example, don't have an intrinsic Initiative. The Wave Serpents in the Aspect Warrior Warhost have the Aspect Warrior Warhost's initiative (1+). The Wave Serpents in the Eldar Guardian Warhost have the Eldar Guardian Warhost's initiative (2+). That's what you need to keep track of.

Morgan Vening

Ok, so if I have a formation of 4 Grey Hunters and 4 Bloodclaws (The Bloodclaws will be upgrades) I roll initiative using the GH's 1+? If that formation is reduced to just 3 Bloodclaws I use the BC initiative? If it's 1 Grey Hunter and 3 BCs I still use the GH initiaive?

Nope. Units don't have initiative. Formations do.

If, as you say, it's a Grey Hunter formation, it's 1+ all the way. Regardless of what's left in the formation. Even if only Blood Claws are left. Only if you put in a Special Rule, will this change.

It might not make 'obvious' sense, but it's easily justifiable. Because in EA, a unit being removed doesn't mean five little bodies blown apart. It means that the squad (ie, single base) is no longer combat functional. So it could be argued that a Grey Hunter detaches from his non-functional unit, attaches to a Bloodclaws unit, and has one of the Bloodclaws attend the wounded. This isn't enough to change the stats of the new stand, but 'explains' why they retain a 1+ Initiative. Even if it is kinda fudged. But then, GW is kinda fudged from the get-go.

Morgan Vening

Ahh I see. Thanks for that Morgan. Very helpful