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barrage questions

 Post subject: barrage questions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:48 pm 
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So I know you must place the first template so that everything under it is withing range and LoS if applicable, that you must maximize the number of units under the first template, and the player being shot at can choose which group of units the template goes over if there's a choice.

However, once the group of units is chosen, can the attacker position the template over those units so a second template can catch more units under it?

Also, how do people handle formations partially in cover? One set of rolls for those units in cover, and one set for units out?

What do people do for characters for formations with various unit types? Have the attacker roll for each type of unit/character?

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 Post subject: barrage questions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:58 pm 
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Quote: (Dave @ Feb. 01 2010, 19:48 )

So I know you must place the first template so that everything under it is withing range and LoS if applicable, that you must maximize the number of units under the first template, and the player being shot at can choose which group of units the template goes over if there's a choice.

However, once the group of units is chosen, can the attacker position the template over those units so a second template can catch more units under it?

Also, how do people handle formations partially in cover? One set of rolls for those units in cover, and one set for units out?

What do people do for characters for formations with various unit types? Have the attacker roll for each type of unit/character?

You must maximize the number of units from the target formation under the first template, then each additional template must then also be placed to maximize units from the target formation. If you can include other formations while doing this, yay, but you don't get that option unless you fulfill the above.

Regards in/out of cover, characters, or what have you, we tend to roll individually for each unit, only 'speed rolling' them if it's relatively inconsequential. Example, 5 IG Infantry in cover, 4 Ig Infantry out of cover, Commisar in cover, and Commander out of cover. The 5 and the 4 can be rolled as two groups, then individual rolls for the character stands. Though I'd have no issue with someone wanting to roll each individually.

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 Post subject: barrage questions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:10 pm 
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For the additional templates, the rules say that they can be placed with no line of fire, placement or range restrictions though. So I don't think you have to maximize the numbers under them anymore, it's your choice where they go.

I'm still curious about thoughts on whether the attacker can position the first template over the chosen group so that subsequent templates can catch more under them.

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 Post subject: barrage questions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:13 pm 
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1.9.8 Barrages

Extra barrage templates: ...Place any extra templates so they touch the first template that was placed, and so that no templates overlap.


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 Post subject: barrage questions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:19 pm 
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Quote: (Dave @ Feb. 01 2010, 19:48 )

So I know you must place the first template so that everything under it is withing range and LoS if applicable,

This is wrong.  Every firing unit has to have range (and LoS if not firing indirect) to at least one unit under the template.  They do not have to have range to every unit under the template.  It is possible to "stretch" the range of the barrage by the length of the template.

Quote: 

that you must maximize the number of units under the first template, and the player being shot at can choose which group of units the template goes over if there's a choice.

However, once the group of units is chosen, can the attacker position the template over those units so a second template can catch more units under it?

If you are asking if it is possible to overlap templates, no.

Quote: 

Also, how do people handle formations partially in cover? One set of rolls for those units in cover, and one set for units out?

Yep.

Quote: 

What do people do for characters for formations with various unit types? Have the attacker roll for each type of unit/character?

People have a lot of house rules on this.  Technically, you roll to hit each unit under the template individually.  If in doubt, do it this way.

Luckily, it's usually possible to group them into a few rolls for simplicity.  Some people simply roll by unit type and assign hits front to back like normal.

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 Post subject: barrage questions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:22 pm 
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Quote: (Dave @ Feb. 01 2010, 20:10 )

For the additional templates, the rules say that they can be placed with no line of fire, placement or range restrictions though. So I don't think you have to maximize the numbers under them anymore, it's your choice where they go.

I'm still curious about thoughts on whether the attacker can position the first template over the chosen group so that subsequent templates can catch more under them.

Quote: 

Extra Barrage Templates: Note that once the first template has been placed, the attacker may choose where to place the additional templates, as long as they are touching the first template, and no line of fire, placement or range restrictions apply (see below).
Quote: 

Using Barrage Templates: In addition, templates must be placed in such a way as to get as many enemy units from the target formation under them as possible within the restrictions for lines of fire and range. This stops players ‘sniping’ at important units with artillery.


I think you are misreading the first one. If you invert the two criteria, you come up with...
Quote: 

Note that once the first template has been placed, the attacker may choose where to place the additional templates, as long as no line of fire, placement or range restrictions apply, and they are touching the first template (see below).


I can see where you got confused (and my interpretation could be wrong), but to me, the revision and the original mean the exact same thing. IMO just poor sentence structure.

As for your latter thoughts, the potential placement of subsequent templates has no bearing on the first one. You must have as many units from the target formation under the first template. If you've got a choice (you can get 7 units from three different positions), you can pick which position suits you best for whichever reason you want, but the initial must contain at LEAST the equal most units under it.

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 Post subject: barrage questions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:24 pm 
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Quote: (Dave @ Feb. 01 2010, 20:10 )

For the additional templates, the rules say that they can be placed with no line of fire, placement or range restrictions though. So I don't think you have to maximize the numbers under them anymore, it's your choice where they go.

Actually, there is an FAQ that says that additional templates must still be placed to try to maximize hits on the original target formation, within the other restrictions (must touch the first template, no overlap).

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I'm still curious about thoughts on whether the attacker can position the first template over the chosen group so that subsequent templates can catch more under them.

If you are talking about 2 possible placements with the same number of units but different places in the formation, like opposite ends of a trenchline, there is no restriction.  As long as numbers are equal the attacker gets to pick.

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 Post subject: barrage questions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:30 pm 
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I'm not asking if you can overlap the templates, merely if you can adjust the first one so that a second template can get more under it.

So a picture...

In A, I place the template so I can get another stand with the second template.

In B, my opponent places the template so I can't get the last stand.




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 Post subject: barrage questions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:32 pm 
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A is perfectly legal.

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 Post subject: barrage questions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:35 pm 
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Quote: (Dave @ Feb. 01 2010, 20:30 )

I'm not asking if you can overlap the templates, merely if you can adjust the first one so that a second template can get more under it.

So a picture...

In A, I place the template so I can get another stand with the second template.

In B, my opponent places the template so I can't get the last stand.

Absolutely. As long as the criteria is met, position is up to the attacker. Though remember, unless otherwise agreed upon, "is that a unit is affected if any part of the model falls under the template, or at least one model on a stand.", so your pictures (assuming they're 40x12 bases) probably won't have the two leftmost or the rightmost under the template.

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 Post subject: barrage questions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:39 pm 
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Ya, we play by at least one model under the template. I was assuming the gray area represented model area for simplicity of the diagram.

Thanks guys, that cleared them up and pointed out things we were doing wrong.




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