I'm sure I've read this earlier, but I searched the forums and the rulebook, and couldn't find the answer.

Unit Alpha (0BM) engages Unit Gamma (4BM) in a forced clipping assault.
Unit Gamma countercharges, and due to the "must charge nearest unit" brings broken Unit Bravo (4 models) into the mix.
After a round of combat of whiffing, and tied Resolution rolls, both sides cause two kills, Unit Alpha/Bravo's player taking them on Bravo.

The question then becomes, does the number of BM's in the broken unit count from BEFORE the kills, or after?

It mattered because at the start of the combat, he had 4BMs (Broken models) to my 4BM's, but after the kills, he drops to 2. Seems weird that a Broken formation in a mixed combat actually benefits from taking casualties. Especially given that as the 2 Cas were done on the Broken unit, he received no BM's after the combat.

Morgan Vening

I'd say that the formation still has 4BM even if it had only 2 units in it. You don't add more BMs or break until the assault is over, so why would you take them away before it's over?

Effectively you freeze the number of BMs (and suspend any rules about how many a formation can have) until the assault is resolved.

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Dave

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The BMs from the beginning of the assault are what counts.  Once the assault starts, that number is locked in.

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Neal

However if that unit that is broken is wiped out, you don't count the BM they had, correct?

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No, the BMs would still count.  The formation was drawn in and part of one big assault formation until the end.  No matter what casualties occur during the assault, they are still one (formerly big) formation with all the units (minus casualties, obviously) and all the BMs they started with.

From the example, Alpha and Bravo formations became one big Alpha-Bravo with 4 BMs on it.  Even if all the formerly Bravo units were wiped out the remaining units do not revert to being just Alpha.  They are Alpha-Bravo until the end of the assault resolution and that means they carry the former Bravo BMs the whole time.

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Neal

Thanks Neil

It did not matter last night, but it is good to know

Cheers....    

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Neal is essentially pointing out the definitions of a "formation" throughout the assault process. An extension of this is where the combined Normal+Broken formation loses the assault resolution; Where do the hack-down hits get allocated?

I believe the answer is that they would get allocated front-to-back (relative to the enemy) before the twice broken formation is removed. This means that potentially some of the hackdown hits fall on the twice broken units rather than the losing 'normal' formation

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

That's correct.  Extra hits for resolution loss are applied before "loser withdraws."  The breaking of the loser and the automatic wipe out of broken formations happens in the withdrawal.  Formations break apart immediately prior to withdrawal moves (or consolidation moves for the winner).

There is a specific FAQ about this, I believe.  Also, there are several special effects where this is relevant.  For example, daemons are destroyed when the formation breaks.  However, just like wiping out a broken formation, since the hackdowns for lost resolution are applied first, daemons can 'soak' the hackdowns even though they are going to be destroyed anyway.

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Neal