I'm confused - does the Avatar have 3 MW CC attacks from it's DC3, and one extra non-MW attack or vice versa? Or are all the attacks MW in CC? Help, I need to kick GROOV3R's butt and I need all the help I can get

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numquam culum es

The basic Avatar has three "normal" CC attacks because it is a 3DC war engine.  The Wailing Doom gives it +1 extra attack that has the Macro Weapon special ability.

If it's an Avatar from Biel-Tan, then the Court of the Young King gives it an *additional* extra attack that has the Macro Weapon special ability.

So, "regular" Avatar: 3 normal CC and 1 MW CC

Biel-Tan Avatar: 3 normal CC and 2 MW CC

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oh, okay    Is there any way of figuring that out from the stats line or is the placement of the "MW" effectively random? Just because in some lines it's +1EA MW, other times it's MW, +1EA (which I've always read as MW attacks, +1EA normal attack).

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Irregardless of the order in the notes section, when you see extra attacks in there other special abilities only modify the extra attack.

Essentially:

EA +1, MW == MW, EA +1

To modify the core abilities you'd have to have something like this:

Weapon X (15cm) Small Arms MW
Weapon Y (15cm) Small Arms Extra Attack(+1), First Strike
Weapon Z (15cm) Small Arms Extra Attack(+1), Ignore Cover

It's to my understanding that this unit has 3 FF attacks: 1 MW, 1 FS and 1 IC.

Although, writing this now, I'm sure people might have other interpretations (1MW, 1 MW FS, 1 MW IC) as I don't think Epic has any units like this and thus no FAQ for this situation.

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Dave

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If there's a weapon that has Macro Weapon ability and no extra attacks, it convers that ability to all normal, non-extra attacks (and there will usually be a note about conferring MW ability).

If there's a weapon that has MW or any other property and Extra Attacks, they ONLY apply to those Extra Attacks (this is in the FAQ).

If a unit has MW attacks normally and NON-MW Extra Attacks, I think nobody knows (it is an issue with some combination of Eldar Aspect warriors and an Exarch, Fire Dragon I believe.)

edit: in all cases, exact order the abilities are listed in shouldn't matter.

The "notes" for a weapon have no "order of operations", they're "simultaneous", so it doesn't matter what order they're listed in, but they only apply to the weapon listed.

So, "Extra Attacks (+1), Macro-Weapon" and "Macro-Weapon, Extra Attacks (+1)" mean *exactly* the same thing: "This weapon grants 1 extra attack and that attack has the Macro-Weapon special ability."

Special abilities listed for a weapon that grants extra attacks *only* apply to those, specific, extra attacks.

The "basic" attacks any unit makes, be it infantry, armoured vehicle, or war engine are normal attacks unless noted.

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Yup, you need to check the weapon stats and their notes.

On hit allocation, assuming the formation charges into contact with one or more enemy units, you get to throw both CC and FF dice for those units in or out of base contact with the enemy. Usually hits are allocated front to back irrespective of whether they are CC or FF hits, (normal hits being allocated first before MW hits are allocated), so you can get the situation where CC MW hits get allocated to units that are not actually in base-base (see the 2008 revisions). Either way, the rule is that hits are allocated "front-to-rear", so they are only 'random' where there is more than one unit at the same distance.

However, because the Avatar is a War engine it uses a slightly different mechanism (3.3.2). The WE can choose the number of FF and CC dice it will throw but must then allocate the hits gained to the relevant targets, so in this case it is quite possible for the single CC and 2x extra MW attacks to gain three CC hits on a single unit and kill it several times over! Here again the hits are only 'random' where more than one enemy unit is the same distance from the Avatar.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

right, that makes alot more sense, thanks everyone! Now I just have to get into a position where I can use one So far in my current game I have a Warhound pack, a Reaver titan and a Lander filled with nastiness waiting to come in, so I should have plenty of targets (if my guardians survive long enough!)

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Okay, now I'm confused. If War Engines can split their CC and FF attacks however they want, how do you deal with extra attacks if it has both EACC and EAFF?

Do they always get ALL extra attacks?

In most cases, yes.  The only restriction is what Hena deescribes.  If a single weapon as an "OR" so it has to choose between modes, then it only gets one mode.  Aside from that, every attack is allowed.  Of course, extra CC attacks doesn't really help if no one is in base contact.

WEs can be pretty nasty in assaults.  Something like a company of SHTs can usually use their superior FF value.  Baneblade A's FF hits cannot be placed on units in base contact with Baneblade A, but they can be placed on any other units, even if those other units are in contact with Baneblade B.  And since they can barge on the countercharge, WEs can almost always open up line of sight to use their FF.

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Neal

Neal, to clarify a small detail, can the CCEA attacks be used on a valid target if the 'normal' CC attacks are not? So in this case of the Avatar, could the player get 3x FF dice AND the 2x EACC MW dice as well?

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Yes.

But any FF hits could *only* be applied to units not in base contact and the CC hits could *only* be applied to units that *ARE* in base contact with the Avatar.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

What Chroma said.

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Neal