Recent comment about "Win At All Costs" combined with my efforts in general have got me thinking, so I have started this thread for people to debate the subject.

I think it would be fair to say that I do have a competitive streak when entering tournaments - after all, the aim is to win. However, Epic is one of the few systems I have encountered where the WAAC ethic (if present) is usually trumped by player's skill and luck (good or bad), in that order. While we may need to distinguish between the design of tournament 'power' armies and 'fluffy' armies, IMHO the tenets of Sun Tzu reign here. Take my efforts at the recent OW XI as an example.

I designed an army with good capabilities against enemy air attacks and hordes, with some anti-armour and anti-titan capabilities. I even got comments from some people not wanting to face it, thus I presume they recognised the army's potential; so far so good. However, I failed to use it properly against each of my three opponents and more importantly, I failed to exploit my strengths and their weaknesses. While I did experience some poor luck (14x '1's in the first turn of Game #1) and failed to win the all-important turn #2 strategy roll in all three games, in reality I was just out-played by my courteous opponents, and I can only hope that my increasingly gloomy attitude did not spoil their day.

While my bad luck with dice is 'legendary', Dave T's 'good luck' is almost as legendary; hence the 'dice of Dave' award. But is it actually just down to dice rolls?

I would contend that Dave follows Sun Tzu's principles better than other players and so makes his own luck. He certainly knows the rules in detail, and seems to be very aware of the various strengths and weaknesses of each race and of most of the players he meets. He probably has a plan that is reasonably flexible and can be adapted if fortune or the enemy get in the way. It is certainly true that Dave wins tournaments with a variety of armies, so it is not purely down to the lists or composition (though I don't think he has played Eldar yet).

I for one would welcome Dave and other top players giving some general hints&tips in the Strategy and Tactics thread (without revealing all their tricks naturally). I would also suggest that thread includes thoughts on the weaknesses as well as the strengths of the various races.

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So what are your thoughts on WAAC and tournaments in general. Do you enjoy playing in tournaments or shun them at all costs, and why? How could tournaments be improved, and indeed how could WAAC be tempered or removed?

Oh, and one last request - please be thoughtfull and constructive in your responses.

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"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Someone certainly would.  

It's not against the letter of the rules, but certainly against the spirit... is that the very definition of WAAC?



Epic tournaments largely lack 'mix-max' armies***, which are a hallmark of the normal WAAC playstyle found in Warhammer / Warhammer 40,000... often because such min-maxed lists will get trounced by a capable opponent with a more balanced list, such is the nature of the Epic game system.

For example I faced a list at the recent tournament which was something like:

- 10 Russ plus Hydra
- 10 Russ plus Hydra
- 3 Shadowswords
- 1 Shadowsword
- 1 Shadowsword
- 1 Shadowsword
- 1 Warhound
- 1 Warhound

That's an obvious min-max list (And yes, he did have Inspiring / MWCC Titans)... but the player tried to play it as a Warhammer 40,000 style list (Move forwards and shoot), whilst I placed blast markers everywhere to hinder his activations then engaged the hell out of it, as he was cripplingly vulnerable to clipping engagements / CC engagements.

My point being that most min-max lists you can build in Epic tend to be rubbish.

Some exceptions seem to be the Black Legion War Engine horde and the L&TD Cultist horde, which even when min-maxed still remain flexible.

But anyway, 90% of the armies I've seen at EpicUK tournaments don't exhibit such min-maxing, whilst at many Warhammer Fantasy / 40,000 tournaments min-maxed lists are the norm and not the exception.


EpicUK tournaments do have a clearly different playstyle to my normal 'friendly' environment however, and it is undoubtedly a playstyle that some do not prefer, as it does take steps in the direction of WAAC. Even if it's only 20% of the way towards WAAC, that's still 20% more than in a 'friendly' environment and people are of course entitled to say 'No, that style of gameplay isn't for me' and not intend it as an insult.


*** Although Black Legion War Engine lists, which are common now, if not the majority of EpicUK Black Legion army lists, are certainly min-max in style.

Another example is the now defunct Scouts/Drop Pods of doom list.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Good call to have a separate thread for this, didn’t want to discuss it in the other thread but happy to here.

Evil and Chaos: Even if it's only 20% of the way towards WAAC, that's still 20% more than in a 'friendly' environment and people are of course entitled to say 'No, that style of gameplay isn't for me' and not intend it as an insult.

And again with the Black Legion...

The NetERC took steps to balance the Black Legion list months ago, whilst EpicUK are still using the over-strong Pixelgeek list...

...personally, I know that I've never won a game against the Pixelgeek Black Legion army list when using my mechanised themed Imperial Guard, whilst my win/loss record against other armies is pretty good. ***List of Black Legion army list problems redacted***... and a whole bunch of other minor problems.

... so ...are EpicUK Black Legion players WAAC players?

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I believe they are working through all the lists individually and this will be done soon.

They've dropped their six month testing cycle focusing on one list type at a time?

I knew they wanted to hurry up the cycle, but I didn't realise that they'd decided they could do all the lists at once.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

did you see my list i used the banelord  i must be WAAC player.

for me its about the fun its a its a place to meet up with likeminded people and have a few games
yes we all want to win, dont you

but hey its only a game (not applicable to you mr bartley 0-3 i will get you next time )

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If they are their not very good ones

Seriously I've never found any regular player to be a WAAC player.
I've only found the odd new player to "stretch" rules but they don't usually come back to other events.

I fully agree to this theory and would be happy to discuss the matter on the basis that some of the, um, less broadminded people don't charge in insults first because they see an opinon different to theirs.

Firsly I'd like to take the oppotunty to dispell a certian assumption that I've seen following my inital comment, I don't have a problem with competative tournaments. I've been to a few and enjoyed them, but I enjoy them for what they are.. for example one before last that I went to the only game I lost was to The_Real_Chris who won the whole thing.

And just to add a disclaimer at this point so I don't get lynched by a anrgy gang I don't feel that WAAC is nessacarly an insult, it means that someone is primarily playing to win. Quite sensible in a tournament, no-one seriously turns up to lose games and die all the time. The_Real_Chris is possibly a good example of this, he fields armies designed to be purely as harsh as he can make them... the times I've talked to him about it he admits that, even to the point of saying hes demonstrating that rules are broken. I don't think its an insult, I like the guy from what I know of him and both times I've played him hes been a perfectly sporting opponent.

I like the tournaments being tough, I have no problem with that or the players who're battling for the top tables. But I think its akin to pizza for example, I like pizzia, but that doesn't mean its the only thing I want to eat all the time.  

Hena: I suppose that basics of WAAC as in 40k or fantasy battle is easier as they are a lot more dependent on army build. Epic requires the use of army to be correct as well. So WAAC mentality has more requirements than just army building.

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"A good orbital insertion is one you walk away from, a great one is where they can use the Thunderhawk again." Roboute Guilliman.

Black Legion have a worrying 64% win rate from the 50 game results I have for them. The results are collated from a variety of sources, including this forum and the UK Epic tournament results for last year.

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http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

But if you look player by player they are doing no better with BL than with any other army - Nathan has done better with SM, I've finished in the top 3 with both BL+Eldar, Mephistons results are comparable with his other armies, Skullrik kas done better with his Orks than BL etc.

Secondly you very rarely have a new player who turns up with BL which probably puts their % up. Also thier is the new army factor - when eldar first appeared they won more but people learned to play against them, a process which has also happened with speed freeks, air assault marines, LatD, black legion and I''m sure would have happened if TRC had brought his siege regularily.

A lot of these min-max lists appear to be mythical anyway - the scout drop has never been seen at tourneys, and I don't see how it would work with proper defence by scouts, the BL WE horde hasn't featured much either. Other than Tims list at OW which would have beein real trouble facing the wrong armies I have never seen more than 4 WEs in a bL list - hardly a horde as you would usually see that many in virtually every other army. A BL list with more than 3 WEs has never won a tourney

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www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Hello!

Just thought I'd add to this.
I'll be bringing Black Legion to my first Tournament in a couple of weeks (so will probably drag the average performance down somewhat ). In terms of the list, I fully don't expect the Warengine horde to survive for long (the playtest changes have put a stop to it, and I imagine that Epic UK will do something similar when they get around to the Chaos lists), so I haven't built my army in that way (although I find it slightly ironic that people seem to wail and moan about WE heavy Black Legion lists, whilst seemingly having no problem with all-titan armies).
To me, building a WAAC list is taking the fun out of the game, it can be frustrating for your opponents and surely victory seems hollow!