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Ork Rules Review
nealhunt
 Post subject: Ork Rules Review
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:44 pm 
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I planned on waiting for most of the items until after the core rules are done, but the multi-landa force being discussed in the Ork Air Cav thread has finally driven me to start. I want to bring this up because it may cause a lot of debate.
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I'm having concerns about the flexibility of the Ork list and the ability to break it. I've run into 2 combinations in particular that seem to be a problem.

1) Supastompas and Landas. Basically, max out the Landas and make all ground formations stompa mobs with supastompas. Obviously, you end up with a force that is well outside the general intent of 1/3 WEs and aircraft. And yes, because Supastompas are Fearless and relatively tough, I consider it a problem where as some other armies (like SHT-heavy IG) that might push those limits are not.

2) TK, TK everywhere. Basically, lots of gunzmobs or blitz brigades with Zzap guns maxed out. Because of the effective to-hit number to begin with, the Zzap gun is much less affected by the -1 for double moving. That, combined with the loss of armor saves, gives a TK-armed formation about 2x as many kills as normal fire assuming 5+ save, 4x as much against 4+RA, and 8x against 4+RA WEs. It seems that the point costs are not commensurate with the increase in ability.

===

So, I'm open to opinions on whether others agree that something seems wrong with those kinds of exploits and, if so, ideas to propose for fixing the problems.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Ork Rules Review
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:30 pm 
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No way to tempt you into looking at the WE transports getting 5+ RA?

Zap guns - I agree they are a very popular choice.  Wouldn't a simple points increase put them in line with the  soopangun? Alternatively have the zap at MW4+, or finally up the points and up the soopagun to BP3 to match it.

Landers - Not a problem if you fix the transport rules :) As long as they can't hold objectives they aren't much of a problem.

Stompers wise what was the outcome of the discussion stompas overpriced, super stompa under priced? Leave it as it is as they balance each other out?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Ork Rules Review
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:38 pm 
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I have other stuff to discuss, including WE armor, stompa/supstompa costs, and so on.  But right now I would like to discuss problems with free-form army composition.

Zzap guns:  Maybe it is the gun itself that is the problem, but I really think it is the availability/flexibility.  For example, comparing a ZZapgun on a Fort to a Shadowsword (similar roles/chassis) seems completely reasonable to me.  Most importantly, I've never seen a list try to exploit it.  If you mess with the weapon itself, you change its value vis a vis other options which are not, as far as I can tell, problematic.

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Ork Rules Review
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:05 pm 
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On the topic of Zzap guns, I think the biggest problem with them is that they are hard to suppress or destroy when put in certain warbands. The problem gets worse (it doesn't scale linearly) with big and 'uge warbands.

I would suggest that oddboyz be given a different point cost based on the unit they are upgrading. Or, if it's feasible, make the second and third oddboy cost more than the first.

Perhaps we could prevent oddboy-upgraded formations from riding in landas.

Making a soopagun 3BP isn't feasible, since that would mean a Uge warband/gargant could place three templates, which doesn't seem right to me.

As for balancing the Zzap gun vs the Soopagun, I think that depends on the adoption of the experimental rule making MW barrages use the AP to-hit values against everything. Under that rule, it seems like Soopagunz would be preferable to Zzap gunz.
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phindar
 Post subject: Ork Rules Review
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:46 pm 
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Quote (semajnollissor @ 10 Feb. 2006 (19:05))
On the topic of Zzap guns, I think the biggest problem with them is that they are hard to suppress or destroy when put in certain warbands. The problem gets worse (it doesn't scale linearly) with big and 'uge warbands.

I agree with them being hard to destroy. ? But not hard to suppress.

You can only suppress units that have range. ?So, ?with one kill (2 BM) you get to suppress these guns.

Unless, ?you are already within 30 cm of the formation. ?In which case, ?2 TK shots are the last thing you should be worried about.

I posted in the SG forum. ?I wonder if I should repeat my thoughts here.  SG forum
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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Ork Rules Review
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:52 pm 
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Quote (phindar @ 10 Feb. 2006 (13:46))
Unless, ?you are already within 30 cm of the formation. ?In which case, ?2 TK shots are the last thing you should be worried about.

Actually, I was assuming they'd be mixed in with a bunch of 45cm big guns, which had just double moved 30cm (or 60cm for a blitz brigade). That gives the TK shots a pretty good unsuppressed range.
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Ork Rules Review
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:46 pm 
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Yep.  In a Big Gunz formation, plenty of 45cm and when I use a Zzzap Brigade, it's 2 flakwagons, 1 zzap and 1 gunwagon, specifically to extend the suppressed range.

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Jaldon
 Post subject: Ork Rules Review
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:27 am 
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(1) Include Supa-Stompas and Landas in the 1/3 limit?

Always thought Landas were included in the 1/3 limit for Gargants and ACs :o0

I always thought Landas were too cheap anyways.

Jaldon :p

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Chroma
 Post subject: Ork Rules Review
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:53 am 
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Quote (Jaldon @ 10 Feb. 2006 (23:27))
Always thought Landas were included in the 1/3 limit for Gargants and ACs :o0

It does say "up to a third on aircraft and Gargants", and the Landa is an aircraft, so they *are* already limited... I wonder how many people missed that?  

That's "thirds" thing *really* ought to be in the actual armylist, not in the "intro".

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Falesh
 Post subject: Ork Rules Review
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:02 pm 
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I just noticed this was posted here as well as the SG forum.

My first thought is that we should be very careful to keep the two issues of the number of Zzaps an Ork army can have and the effectiveness/points of them separate. Personally I feel that their effectiveness and price is fine. I am yet to be convinced that there is a problem with the number an army can have, but I don't hold as strong a view on this.


Effectiveness

I think that Zzaps do not overperform when compared to similar formations in other armies. For instance when comparing TK shots they are equal in price to Shadowswords (1 for 200 and 3 for 500 in a BB). The Shadowsword has a MW2+, TK (D3) and has less trouble Advancing or using Sustained Fire. Compared to the Zzaps MW3+, TK (D3) which can double more easily but has trouble using Advance or Sustained Fire.

When comparing shots vs none WE units then I would say a Steel Legion Tank Co outperforms the Huge BB and 3 Zzaps by a good margin, taking into account that the Tank Co costs 150 more.

With regards to survivability the Zzaps have strengths and weaknesses. They are very vulnerable to Breaking due to the formations close proximity to the Mob Up cut offs, e.g. you only need to kill 2 units from a Huge BB to bring it down to +1 Mob Up and a Normal BB doesn't get a Mob Up from the start. They are also very vulnerable to common AT fire due to their 5+ save. They are however stronger at coping with TK fire then the Shadowswords.

Because of the above I do not think that Zzaps in the context of a BB are underpriced or overpowered.


Quantity

Like I say I don't think this is a problem but I don't have a very strong view on it.

One question is if this is a problem for the Orks then isn't it also a problem for the IG? They can have as many Shadowswords as they like and they can also add in Deathstrikes, Tank Co's, Vultures and Barrage. As far as I can tell that would make a full Zzap Ork army pale in comparison.

Another point is that in all the different army combinations I have tried it has been my assault formations that have been the most effective at actually winning the game (or doing lots of damage while losing :p) then my Zzaps ever have. As far as I can see there is a soft cap for how many you can have due to the fact that if you buy lots you would either have to sacrifice assault formations, aircraft, gargant, etc, or build formations for a dual shooting/assault role in which case whenever they assault they are wasting the points they spent on the Zzaps.

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Hojyn
 Post subject: Ork Rules Review
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:18 pm 
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I think the problem with Zzap-Guns when compared to Soopaguns is perhaps that, unlike the Soopaguns, Zzap-Guns are useful enough on their own.

Example:

For 50 points you have the choice between a MW3+ TK shot or 2BP MW... I'll choose the TK shot every time, as it is much more effective.

Now if you take a 'uge band and 3 Oddboyz, the choice between 3TK shots or 6BP MW is more difficult, because both options are as effective.

Raising the cost of the Zzap-Gun to, say, 75 points, would perhaps change this situation by making them somewhat less attractive... or would it?
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Falesh
 Post subject: Ork Rules Review
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:34 pm 
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Raising the cost of the Zzap-Gun to, say, 75 points, would perhaps change this situation by making them somewhat less attractive... or would it?


I have a problem with raising the points of Zzaps to make Soopaguns more apealing (or less common, but that's another issue). I feel that Zzaps are balanced points wise now so in solving one problem, making Soopaguns more apealing, we would be creating another, i.e. unbalancing Zzaps.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Ork Rules Review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:06 pm 
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Falesh:  We hashed this out in detail already.

For anyone who is interested in referencing that discussion it's here.

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Falesh
 Post subject: Ork Rules Review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:47 pm 
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Ahh fair enough, I wasn't sure whether to contribute to both threads when I saw this one or not. :)

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Ork Rules Review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:45 pm 
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No sweat.  It's not like I haven't done similar things in the past.

I meant no offense.  Apparently, what I have intended to be jocularity this morning is coming across as abrasive.

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