Hi guys,

The first GW game I ever owned was the original Space Marine, and I still have fond memories of the games I played....
I sold off all my Epic stuff via ebay last year, but have regretted it ever since......
I've been looking at the latest incarnation and am itching to get back into some tiny gaming!  Having been captivated by the Heresy series of novels, I was considering a 28mm pre heresy project, but now think epic scale would suit the idea more  

I would love to be able to play the Istvaan massacre so a big force of traitors against battered loyalists is the order of the day!  was even thinking of converting Primarchs like Angron out of 10/15mm miniatures??  
Has anyone done army lists for the pre-heresy legions?  Jetbikes could be done using Eldar rules I think........

Interesting topic...

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I'm pretty sure there's a daemon prince angron for epic.

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Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow

Well I have all my SM1 thru E:A stuff, as most of the Boyz here know. And Organize most of my units based on SM1 TO&Es(W/D 126). The SM1 rule book talks about on pg.7 about the World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons and Sons of Horus went to Isstvan III under Horus ... I think one of the older 40K Codexs talks about Pre-heresy organizations ... However the SM1 rule book has a Standard Detachment Table on pg. 47 for SM Tac, Dev and Asslt Infantry and Raiders, Rhinos and Whirlwinds. The TO&Es/Lists/Templates we use are "how to design Space Marine Armies for fighting battles in the Horus Heresy" ... pg.12 W/D 126 June 1990. Those are the TO&Es(lists) that we use. And those should work for Isstvan III.  Hope that helps ...

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Yeah there is.......I used to have him.......

But what I'm referring to is Angron in his prime as a big hulking barbarian  

For models, I think that this is entirely possible, and an interesting idea. Older Epic miniatures include Jet Bikes, etc. You will have to be prepared to blur a few details - for example even the oldest Marine armour is MkVI and (I think) this is the first post heresy variant produced.

Rules wise you will need to be a bit more creative. The current system focusses on Armageddon, and so pre-Daemonic Primarks are not included. That said, rules are easier to create yourself than models are...

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https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.

Ahh, now here is a topic after my own heart seeing as I am working on a pre-heresy Thousand Sons army. First off, background on armour and vehicles - I'm one of the Background moderators on The Great Crusade, a dedicated pre-heresy forum, so this is a bit of a pet topic of mine.

Vehicles
Predator Anhilators, Razorbacks, and Land Speeder Typhoons are all post-heresy designs, as are Land Raider variants like the Crusader. Vindicators were developed during the heresy by the Ultramarines. I haven't found any definitive information on Hunters anywhere, so I would allow them. Vehicles that were available to the Legions during this period but not in the 41st millenium are Jetbikes and Marine Superheavy tanks (the 'Fellblade', which is a Marine Baneblade, and the 'Mammoth' or 'Stormsword' which appears to be a Marine version of the Shadowsword). There is a complete rundown of which vehicles were and weren't available to Imperial Forces during this period here.

Armour Types
- Mk. I was used during the conquest of Terra and the neighbouring planets, but then replaced.
- Mk II was introduced following the alliance with Mars, and was in use throughout the Great Crusade.
- Mk III was developed during the Great Crusade for use in close quarter fighting and for assault units, and was also popular with command squads and ceremonial units due to its brutal appearence.
- Mk IV was developed towards the end of the Crusade, and when the Heresy broke out the re-equipping of the Legions with Mk IV was only partly complete.
- Mk V was developed almost immediately the Heresy broke out, as Mk IV proved difficult to repair and recreate for many legions due to lack of spares.
- Mk VI was developed soon after Mk V, and there is background that suggests some Legions had it available early on in the Heresy period.
- Mk VII was developed just before the Loyalists were forced to abandon Mars, and was available to the Loyalist Legions involved in the Siege of Terra but not to the Traitors as the production facilities were moved to Terra before Mars fell.
- Mk VIII is post-heresy.

Terminator Armour was, like in the 41st Millenium, rare due to the fact it had only started being issued to the Legions towards the end of the Great Crusade. In addition, it differed from current Teminator armour, most notably the Shoulder Pads, which looked a bit like Roman Legionary armour as opposed to the rounded pads used today:

Jetpacks were different as well... the most common type appears to have been a pack that looked like twin turbofans rather than the current look:


I did actually start thinking about a Pre-Heresy list myself actually. I'll see if I can dig out what I came up with later...

I think the current lists would still be a good place to start. Marines haven't changed much in ability over time. Drop all the post heresy stuff and charge a points cost for land raider transport upgrade (yes, in SM1 anyone could travel in a land raider!). Hmmm, might have to look out my SM1 rules and related WD's. And my "orange" BA's would be back in vogue  

I thin there is real scope for a Horus Heresy supplement, with guides to how to represent heresy armies using available and OOP minis.

The marine and rebel forces would look very different in organisation, and it would be cool to think up some new IG lists.  Terran defence forces for example.  Coolest would be ways of representing the primarchs for a bit of fun hero hammer (within reason   ).

Hmmm....  Thoughts...

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"Do not offend the Chair Leg of Truth; it is wise and terrible."
-Spider Jerusalem

OK, well here is the start I made on a Pre-Heresy marine list. I took the current 'Codex' marine list from the TacComms Epic Armageddon Handbook and made a few modifications.

Heres a quick run through of the thinking behind the list:

Limiting vehicle types:
No Predator Anhilators, Razorbacks, or Land Speeder Typhoons as they are all post-heresy. Also no Vindicators, but you could add them back into the list for a heresy-era army as the Ultramarines developed them after the Heresy started and they quickly spread to other Legions.

Extra troops for detatchments:
I allowed an upgrade of an extra 2 units to Assault, Devastator and Tactical detatchments. Prior to the Codex Astartes, Legions (and their formations) were much larger, and tended in most cases to be used as the primary force for invasions rather than the rapid strike force role they have in 40k. I figured allowing slightly larger detatchments of infantry was a good way to represent this. Terminators, however, I kept as are... during this period they are noted as being in very short supply, so bigger Terminator Detatchments didn't fit the background to my mind.

Superheavies:
There are several examples of Marine Superheavies in the 'Collected Visions' artbook, equivalent to the Baneblade and Shadowsword but operated/crewed by the Legions. In addition, having Superheavies available tied in with the idea the Legions were less a strike force but often made up the majority of an invading army during the Great Crusade. So, I allowed them Marine Baneblades and Shadowswords. However, I figure Super-Heavy Companies remains an Imperial Guard (or Imperial Army during the Pre-heresy period) thing, so limited them to detatchments of one.    

Jetbikes:
Marines had jetbikes available to them during the pre-heresy period, and there are plenty of examples in the artwork. Rather than create a new detatchment type, I simply added the option to upgrade the existing Bike Detatchment to 'skimmers' as long as there are not any Attack Bikes.

Specialist Commanders:
This is purely for flavour. The Command Structure of the Thousand Sons was almost entirely made up of Librarians, ditto the Word Bearers and Chaplains.

Now, my re-entry into the Epic fold has only involved painting so far, so I have no Epic:Armageddon gaming experience. Thankfully, most of this list is simply a cut and paste of existing units with slightly different upgrades, so point costs are pretty simple. However, there are a few things I simply guessed what they are worth, so any input from the legions of experienced gamers/playtesters on this site would be welcome:
Super-Heavies: is 25 points too expensive for the ATSKNF and 1+ initiative upgrade? Or too cheap?
Jetbikes: Again, is 25 too cheap or too expensive? I figure the pop-up ability would be of limited use due to their lack of ranged weapons, and the ability to force use of FF in engagements is also unlikely to be that useful as their CC value is better than their FF anyway.

So what are peoples thoughts? The removal of available AT fire as a result of the loss of post-heresy vehicles (particularly Anhillators and Razorbacks) hurts them quite badly, but the addition of SH Tanks should help make up for that, and make Warhounds a bit less of an automatic choice. Still, I think the list probably makes marines even more reliant on engagements, particularly against armour, something the option for larger formations should help with.

Is the list varied enough or does it need additional units? Going by the artwork and background, there are a couple of other things that could be added:

Stormbirds - Similar in purpose to a Thunderhawk, but larger and able to carry more troops. Perhaps DC 3 and 12 transport spaces? In addition, it has more weapons - including rockets.  
Recon Squads - Basically scouting units in power armour, with the option for sniper rifles.

The AT firepower can be covered by adding Land Raiders to the transport options for Tac detachments.

Consider using FW t/hawks as stormbirds. Those things are massive!

Loving the whole idea. My Pre Heresy 1ksons are itching to fight some xenos scum!

D.

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Epic:Armageddon... Like Apocalypse but for grown-ups.

[b]Bearded Dice[/b]: [url]http://bearded-dice.co.uk[/url]

Looks like the crew  has a good plan ! Let us know how the execution goes !  And great list Red Sorc. ! I saved it. But I may have missed it, as I surfed thru it quickly, - but tunnellers and CI ? Both used during the Heresy.

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

I'm with L4; I'd use the SM1 TO&E for pre-Heresy marines.

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"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

Well just been out and found my SM1 rules and WD's. A happy discovery was my rouge trader rules and the two follow on supplements (Battles and Vehicles). I really thought they were long gone  

[EDIT] Wow, what a nostalgia trip this has been! WD back then was a real hot bed of development. New codexs and units every month, loads of games covered and even adverts for other stores!

And as for Epic, from nothing to lists for Guard, Marines, Orks and Squats in a matter of 8 months! I seem to be missing the Eldar though. Anyone know which WD they were in?