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Assault Query

Kleomenes

Post subject: Assault Query

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:07 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:39 pm
Posts: 227

Hi all.

I played a game against EmperorsShadow today and we had a funny situation with regards to an assault.

A SM air assault came in to hit the flank of a chaos marine retinue. The retiune was widely strung out, and there were some intermingled land raiders behind it. Planning to minimise the chaos units that could be involved the SM strung out in a thin line that left only the 2 CSM and a single rhino on the left flank within firefight range. The SM effectively formed the cross bar of a 'T' relative to the CSM. In the ensuing assault, the chaos units were destroyed, and the assault resolution roll off was a tie. So far so good.

HOWEVER when it came to counter charges, the SM were forced to go towards the nearest unit. This was NOW some broken raptors that were cowering in some ruins on the right flank of the marine unit. This meant they got no closer to the rest of the retinue. The retinue and land raiders counter charged...and didnt get to within 15 cm. At this point we scratched our head and wondered just what should happen.

We decided to play on so rolled assault resolution again, which AGAIN was a tie, which again led to counter charging that didnt see ANYONE get in range (the CSM were JUST out of range now) And so again we rolled resolution, AGAIN we tied, and finally we got into range with counter charging and resolved the assault. (CSM won narrowly in the end).

The question is, what should happen in such situations? Should the assault have just finished with no one being broken? Should we have done it as we did? We couldnt find anything in the book to deal with what happens when no one is left within range of each other after countercharges (but in the heat of the game did we miss something?)

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Assault Query

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:41 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

The question is, what should happen in such situations? Should the assault have just finished with no one being broken?

This is the same situation as when you Engage a Tau formation, only to find it hops back 10cm, leaving you with no targets in range to firefight against.

In this situation, you are supposed to end the firefight right there, with neither side being broken.

If there have already been some casualties, apply blast markers as normal.

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dptdexys

Post subject: Assault Query

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:23 pm

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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm
Posts: 1974
Location: South Yorkshire

Q: In a game we have an Assault that results in a tie. Consequently we must fight another round of combat. Both sides do their counter-charge move but at the end of the move neither formation has any units within 15cm of an enemy unit. Do we resolve this round of combat (even though no casualties could be caused) or is the Assault consider over because there are no units within 15cm of an enemy unit?
A: You would need to resolve the new Assault round, even though no actual fighting took place. So work out the results as per 1.12.7 and don't forget to include the casualties from the first round of the Assault when determining the winner of this second round.

From the FAQs on the specialist games site.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Assault Query

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:25 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

Ah, so the Tau rule overrides the standard rules.

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Kleomenes

Post subject: Assault Query

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:26 pm

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Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:39 pm
Posts: 227

Sounds like we did it right in the end!

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dptdexys

Post subject: Assault Query

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:30 pm

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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm
Posts: 1974
Location: South Yorkshire

(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 09 2008,16:41)

QUOTE

The question is, what should happen in such situations? Should the assault have just finished with no one being broken?

This is different to Kleomones situation.

If a round of combat has already been fought then the engagement carries on until there is a definate winner no matter how many rounds of combat it takes.

In E+Cs Tau Jet pack case,or any assault where the engaging side fail to get into 15cm (FF/Engage range)for the 1st round of combat to take place then the engagement has faltered and does not take place.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Assault Query

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:38 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

Fair enough, similar situation, different rule applies.

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Tiny-Tim

Post subject: Assault Query

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:43 pm

Hybrid

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm
Posts: 4893
Location: North Yorkshire

However as the SM initated the Engagement that can counter charge towards the formation they engaged? No.

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dptdexys

Post subject: Assault Query

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:45 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm
Posts: 1974
Location: South Yorkshire

(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 09 2008,17:25)

QUOTE

Ah, so the Tau rule overrides the standard rules.

The tau jet pack rule still follows normal rules of engagement (assault fails if no units manage to get within 15cm).

The difference comes with the tau (jet packs) being allowed to jump back 10cm (out of normal sequence) instead of having thier counter charge move.

Note though that this 10cm jump only happens once (immediately after an engage is called) not after each round of combat,so the jet pack troops couldn't keep retreating after each drawn round.

From the Tau rules.
Tau Jet Packs follow all the rules for Jump Packs. Additionally, units with Tau Jet Packs are allowed to fall back from a
charging enemy instead of making a counter-charge move. The units may move 10cm in any direction immediately
after the enemy formation has declared an engage or air assault action against their formation (note that falling back
happens before a charge or air assault is made, not after charge moves as with counter-charges).

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dptdexys

Post subject: Assault Query

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:48 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm
Posts: 1974
Location: South Yorkshire

(Tiny-Tim @ Mar. 09 2008,17:43)

QUOTE

However as the SM initated the Engagement that can counter charge towards the formation they engaged? No.

All counter charges have to be to the nearest enemy unit (if a counter charge is made) not nescessarily the target formation.

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nealhunt

Post subject: Assault Query

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:07 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Kleomenes: As noted, you did it correctly.

===

That's the "book rules" answer.

I think with the "stalled assault" rules in the experimental that what happened would depend on where the remaining live SM units were in relation to the CSM. If all SMs in range (of the original CSM position) were wiped out then it would be a stalled assault. If not, then I think it would still be resolved as stated - next round same as the first as they try to close.

I'd have to go back and look at the exact rule text on the revisions/handbook to make sure.

All in all, a very odd situation.

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rpr

Post subject: Assault Query

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:20 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:32 pm
Posts: 516

(dptdexys @ Mar. 09 2008,19:48)

QUOTE

All counter charges have to be to the nearest enemy unit (if a counter charge is made) not nescessarily the target formation.

This should be changed... (quite offtopic)

It is just plain silly to first move one formation within 12cm to support assault, then engage with other formation from 13cm range, clipping just a few units in target formation (making sure that they are at least 13.5cm away from the supporting formation, but leaving other units in target formation closer to that supporting formation).

Now target formation cannot countercharge toward attacker to bear more units within 15cm as they must move toward the other formation. Thus the defender can only shoot with original targets and counter-charge "has no effect".

And this was just the stupid thing which appeared in E40K and which I though E:A fixed with counter-charge rules - but obviously not.
"Clever" or "Strategic" placement someone might call it. I call it stupid rule trickery. Counter-charge should be toward closest attacker.

(there could be an exception that unit in enemy ZoC must move toward that enemy)

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Assault Query

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:26 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

I too would like to see a small change in this... that you could chose either to counter-charge towards the nearest enemy (As now) or towards the nearest enemy of the attacking formation.

If you were in a ZOC, you'd have no choice where to go, obviously.

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nealhunt

Post subject: Assault Query

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:44 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Now target formation cannot countercharge toward attacker to bear more units within 15cm as they must move toward the other formation. Thus the defender can only shoot with original targets and counter-charge "has no effect"...

"Clever" or "Strategic" placement someone might call it. I call it stupid rule trickery. Counter-charge should be toward closest attacker.

It's an intentional effect. If you can't countercharge because you're pinned down by fire from multiple directions, then you're pinned down. There is no direct "crossfire" rule for assaults. This is the way you do it for assaults.

"Charge this way... No, charge this way... No, over there..."

It also serves the purpose of keeping support formations from charging up super close and pretending they are invulnerable to taking casualties while the nominal engaging formation is twice as far away. The "nearest enemy" allows them to be charged and potentially beaten by a tough enemy.

Finally, it's common military doctrine that if you're getting shredded by high volume of fire from enemy nearby, you charge. Obviously, you don't charge the guys far away. You charge the ones you can get to fastest.

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