Finally got my copy |
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Finally got my copy  Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:55 pm |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
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It sounds like starting from the Saim Hann vault list would be a better way to go. Obviously, it has the bike formations. All the aspects and guardians are mounted. No Void Spinners.
I don't really understand the point of having the Vypers for fire support in a guardian host. They don't amount to significant firepower and if you want them primarily for placing BMs, the wave serpents can do that just as well.
I also don't really understand the War Walker Host from a tactical purpose perspective.
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Guardians: Don't sell them short until you have used them.
4+FF is very effective. When you go to assault, obviously, keep the distance 10+cm so your opponent cannot counter-charge into base contact. Put the wave serpets in front. If you are constricted by terrain and have to get closer, your opponent will have to engage them first and since they are skimmers they can choose to FF anyway. Either way, the hits will be allocated to the 5+RA on the WS before they are allocated to the guardians.
Having a commander (Farseer) in a ton of formations makes combined assaults very easy and common. The Hit and Run rule allows Eldar to pull off some truly amazing multi-assault turns.
So, imagine something like this:
Action 1 - Take a double-move and shoot action with a loaded guardian host. Unload within 10-15cm. The WS fire at the target formation, placing BMs for the eventual assault.
Action 2 (retained initiative) - Assault the target formation, with a second guardian host. That's 24 FF4+ shots, counting the support formation. They have BMs from the preparatory fire. Your assault host starts as 12 strong for outnumbering. Against a decent armor (say, 4+ save) opponent, you can reasonably expect _6_ kills, +1 or +2 from BMs, and a good chance to outnumber, gaining another +1.
As if that weren't enough, your winning formation gets a full move to consolidate, allowing it to load up and move ~30cm, into support range for...
Action 3 (second retained initiative) - repeat the above. The guardians from Action 2 have to stay loaded because the consolidation move doesn't get to unload, but it's still extra support. And if you use bikes in step 2, they DO get to support at full effect.
And we haven't even gotten into the combined Guardian/Aspect assaults. A bunch of Scorpions in base contact to keep your guardians safely at FF range is nasty.
Reapers: Again, don't discount their FF ability. You can move within support range, fire at a target (the eventual assault target, or anyone else if you prefer), and then retain to assault the threatened formation.
And if you put them in falcons (or just some in falcons), you have a very strong mix of AP/AT in a single formation. Against some formations that doesn't work very well, but against someone like Marines who almost always have mixed infantry/AV, it is a monster.
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Neal
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CyberShadow
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Post subject: Finally got my copy Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:03 am |
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| Swarm Tyrant |
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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9350
Location: Singapore
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Thanks for your comments so far guys. I really do want these Eldar do be a challenge, and something that people would be very happy to play against. So, a few points?
I have now looked at the Saim-Hann, Ulthwe and (obviously) Biel Tan lists. For me, none of them really capture what I trying to get out of my Eldar. The Saim Hann is fine, but I want to build my force around transported Guardians, rather than Jet Bikes. Ulthwe are closer, but without the Black Guardians, and the Biel Tann I have discussed. However, looking over these lists has given me a much better idea of what a ?vanilla? Eldar force would look like, and this was slightly skewed by the Biel Tann list alone. I would like a unique force for my Eldar. I have not found a complete Alaitoc list, but the discussions are interesting. As far as I understand it, the ?character formation? will be a ranger unit, which will be able to take War Walkers as upgrades.
The things that I consider key to the force are ? Storm Squad Guardians, War Walkers, Vypers moved from Jet Bike units to Guardian units, lack of ?heavy? or slow units.
Neal ? Thanks for the comments on both the Guardians and the Reapers. I will be the first to admit that I need a lot more practice with ?firefight? troops, and you have given me some ideas. I have never wanted to change any of the established stats, and your comments have convinced me to stick with them and trust in the design process.
I have realised that my thoughts on Aspect Warriors were off, as a result of only looking at the Biel Tann list. My apologies for that. My Craftworld do rely on their Aspects, who are central to the organisation, but are not as strong as the Biel Tann. So, I have downsized the formation and moved it to a Troupe (support formation). Should this be set at four stands plus transport, or a core of four with an option to add another two, plus transports? I would like to make it four or six stands, but I am unsure if this is too much.
I can understand confusion over the Vypers. Think of them as replacing the Support Weapon Platforms. I want some support fire that can keep up with the transported Guardians. I would guess that around 30-35 points each is about right? Also, note that I have taken Vypers away from the Jet Bike Troupe. I see the Jet Bikes as the piranha shoals of my Eldar, and the Vypers as the longer ranged mobile platforms.
The War Walkers are mainly in there because I just really like them. They technically replace the Wraithlords, and I think that they give a fairly fragile weapon platform and fit with the whole idea of the force hitting and then withdrawing and relocating. They have the potential to hit hard, but cannot be left still for too long and pinned down.
The Storm Squad Guardians are a bit more difficult. One the one hand, I think that CC4+, FF6+ is the most logical, but that makes them better in close combat than Dire Avengers and Swooping Hawks, and as good as Striking Scorpions! On the other hand, CC5+ and FF5+ is not too bad, and may be more realistic. I am considering CC5+, FF6+ as well, but this may make them a poor cousin to the Defender (standard) Squads. Right now, I am leaning towards CC5+, FF5+, but any comments would be appreciated.
In addition, I have made the Guardians transports compulsory. It was always the plan, so they now have to come with Wave Serpents.
I would also like to add a dedicated command formation at some point. Adding Autarchs is fine, but a ?only one available? command formation would be nice, and presents some interesting possibilities. Any suggestions there would also be appreciated.
Also note that I have taken out the option of Falcons that don?t transport. If you want Falcons, you have to give them to an Aspect Troupe. Also, no units in the force can garrison. The Rangers present a problem. They are a nice unit, but they are also the only unit with a speed of 15cm which cannot take transports. I just don?t think that transports fit their background.
So this leaves the current incarnation of the list as?
INDIVIDUALS
0-1 Wraithgate (as Swordwind, 50 points)
0-1 Autarch (as Swordwind (+75 points), must be the only Exarch in an Aspect Troupe. This guy will probably be replaced out, maybe for a Phoenix Lord from the destroyed Craftworld as a dedicated unit)
HOSTS
Guardian Warhost
Core
- 1x Farseer, 7x Guardian (each can be a defender squad (as Swordwind) or Storm Squad (close combat)), 4x Wave Serpents (350 points)
Upgrade
- Add up to three Vypers (+30 or + 35 points each)
War Walker Host (as Swordwind, six for 200 points)
TROUPES (Up to 3 for each Host)
Aspect Warrior Troupe
Core
- 4x Aspect Warriors (150 points)
Upgrade
- 2x Aspect Warriors (+75 points)
- 1x Exarch (+25 points)
- Transports of Wave Serpents or Falcons (+50/+65 points)
Jet Bike Troupe (6 Jet Bike units at 200 points)
Ranger Troupe (4 Ranger stands at 100 points)
Fire Prism Troupe (3 Fire Prisms at 250 points)
Night Spinner Troupe (3 Night Spinners at 175 points)
Storm Serpent Troupe (1 Storm Serpent at 250 points)
Engines of Vaul Troupe (2 units, each either a Cobra or Scorpion or a combination, for 500 points)
SPACECRAFT, AIRCRAFT AND TITANS
All as Swordwind |
Further comments?
_________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
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wargame_insomniac
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Post subject: Finally got my copy Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:03 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:42 pm
Posts: 3305
Location: West Yorkshire, UK
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CS
Have you got or have access to the 40k Codex Eye of Terror? They had an army list in their for Ulthwe Strike Force. That featured a Guardian heavy fast force with jetbikes and vypers. Maybe that would help provide a framework for your ideas.
Then have a look in the SG Forum if anyone has done a Fan-list for the Ulthwe Strke Force for Epic A.
If you don't have Codex EoT let me know and I will try to dig my copy out so that I can summarise main bits on force selection.
Cheers
James
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Finally got my copy Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:30 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
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It looks usable to me but as always, I have more comments  :
>> Should [aspects] be set at four stands plus transport, or a core of four with an option to add another two, plus transports?
I suspect either will work fine, as long as it is limited to 1 exarch per formation. I have some small reservations about the effectiveness of 2 4-unit aspect troupes loaded in a Vampire. I think they could be more effective than a single 8-unit host, but opinions on that issue seem to vary.
>> Think of [vypers] as replacing the Support Weapon Platforms.
I understand the concept, but I don't think you're going to find them tactically useful. Unlike adding weapon platforms to a foot-slogger host, the mounted hosts already have ranged fire. Ranged fire has 2 uses - killing the enemy and blacing BMs. The difference in firepower isn't going to change whether firing at range is viable for actual attrition of the enemy. It still won't be very effective and therefore firing is a waste of the formation's core capability - assault.
I think they are fine for character, and in light of their (imho) limited usefulness, I would put them at 30 points to start with.
>> I see the Jet Bikes as the piranha shoals of my Eldar, and the Vypers as the longer ranged mobile platforms.
Taking out the ranged fire removes the bikes' ability to place BMs. Even with 35cm skimmer movement, assaults just won't happen every turn. The ability to take a pot shot and place a BM after a double move can be extremely valuable. Personally, I don't think allowing a vyper in the formation appreciably changes the "piranha" feel, but your mileage may vary.
>> The War Walkers are mainly in there because I just really like them.
Sounds okay to me. You might consider boosting the host to 8 models (for 250?) just to give them some more staying power and more of a "host" feel. Also, if you are denying all garrisons, where does that leave these guys?
>> One the one hand, I think that CC4+, FF6+ is the most logical, but that makes them better in close combat than Dire Avengers and Swooping Hawks, and as good as Striking Scorpions!
I think that's okay. They are better at CC in 40K than DAs or Hawks. They have a lower WS, but they have 2 attacks each and will usually have a warlock with them to use Enhance. They still won't be as good as Scorpions because the Scorpions get twice the number of attacks.
>> On the other hand, CC5+ and FF5+ is not too bad, and may be more realistic.
Also a good option.
>> I would also like to add a dedicated command formation at some point.
I think I would go for the Farseer Council. It's the only dedicated commander in the eldar background that fits in with the guardian-based nature of the army.
You may find yourself light on AT without the falcons. One option to add that back in would be to allow the Vampire Raiders as air support.
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I think the list is solid and balanced. If anything, I would guess it to be a tad on the weak side and most of the options I mentioned above would give littel boosts.
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Neal
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CyberShadow
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Post subject: Finally got my copy Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:07 pm |
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| Swarm Tyrant |
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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9350
Location: Singapore
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Continued thanks, guys, for helping me to slap this thing into shape.
They had an army list in their for Ulthwe Strike Force. That featured a Guardian heavy fast force with jetbikes and vypers. |
I think that I got something like this from the web site. However, I am obviously not be very clear here (not so unusual!). What I am looking for are formations of Guardians which can mix in and threaten an enemy formation or flank, and then mount up and zip off somewhere else easily. I am not very interested in Jet Bikes as a focus to the force.
I suspect either will work fine, as long as it is limited to 1 exarch per formation. |
Are Exarchs really that good? Anyway, I like the idea of a core unit of four, with the ability to add a further two. This will mean that some Aspect Troupes (eg Scorpions) can be larger than other (eg Reapers). I wont trouble myself with the merits of two lots of four or onelot of eight... I will leave that to the Epic Intellectuals.
I understand the concept, but I don't think you're going to find them tactically useful.
That is all fine, but you have to admit that the Host swooping in, Vypers spraying AT shots while the Guardians jump out of Wave Serpents to firefight, is a great theme! I will just be very pleased to get some AT weapons that can keep up with the Guardians. Thirty points sounds good to me.
Personally, I don't think allowing a vyper in the formation appreciably changes the "piranha" feel, but your mileage may vary.
True, the Jet Bikes wont be able to soften up targets before launching at them. But, they will be able to work with other formations, and I see them pouncing and finishing off already broken formations while the rest of the force moves forwards. I would want them to work on flanks and behind my own lines really.
You might consider boosting the host to 8 models (for 250?) just to give them some more staying power and more of a "host" feel. Also, if you are denying all garrisons, where does that leave these guys?
Eight for 250 sounds good to me too. They cant garrison (more in a minute), meaning that they will need to double time. I see these guys as capturing rally points and then moving on. They will be difficult to use well, but I can live with that.
They are better at CC in 40K than DAs or Hawks.
True, but it also puts them on a par with Marines! And I have to bear in mind that they should be pointed at the same level as the 'standard' Guardians, to avoid paying to upgrade them. I will probably go with CC5+, FF5+ at least for now. However, I will need to think about this more.
As for the command formation, I wanted something a bit more military than a Seer council. A Phoenix Lord and retinue would be ideal... More thoughts required.
It is true that without the Falcons I may lack AT weapons. But, remember that they are also provided by the Vypers, and could potentially be dotted in quite a few formations. This is one reason to limit Falcons to their transport role for Aspects.
I had forgotten about the two types of Vampire, and since I was using Swordwind to start with, I just assumed that I would use the Vampire Raider. It suits me fine. I will also have ready access to Nightwings.
Coming back to garrisons, what if the Rangers were the only unit in the force that was able to garrison? It feels right, helps their lack of mevement compared to the rest of the force, and allows some advanced movement.
And so, the not-very-modified latest version is:
INDIVIDUALS
0-1 Wraithgate (as Swordwind, 50 points)
0-1 Autarch (as Swordwind (+75 points), must be the only Exarch in an Aspect Troupe. This guy will probably be replaced out, maybe for a Phoenix Lord from the destroyed Craftworld as a dedicated unit)
HOSTS
Guardian Warhost
Core
- 1x Farseer, 7x Guardian (each can be a defender squad (as Swordwind) or Storm Squad (close combat)), 4x Wave Serpents (350 points)
Upgrade
- Add up to three Vypers (+30 points each)
War Walker Host (as Swordwind, eight for 250 points)
TROUPES (Up to 3 for each Host)
Aspect Warrior Troupe
Core
- 4x Aspect Warriors (150 points)
Upgrade
- 2x Aspect Warriors (+75 points)
- 1x Exarch (+25 points)
- Transports of Wave Serpents or Falcons (+50/+65 points)
Jet Bike Troupe (6 Jet Bike units at 200 points)
Ranger Troupe (4 Ranger stands at 100 points)
Fire Prism Troupe (3 Fire Prisms at 250 points)
Night Spinner Troupe (3 Night Spinners at 175 points)
Storm Serpent Troupe (1 Storm Serpent at 250 points)
Engines of Vaul Troupe (2 units, each either a Cobra or Scorpion or a combination, for 500 points)
SPACECRAFT, AIRCRAFT AND TITANS
All as Swordwind (including the use of the Vampire Raider)
Things to consider:Storm Squad Guardians. Are the stats right, or should they be CC4+, FF6+?
Dedicated command formation
