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Epic_Moderator E-A Playtest Moderator Discussion
MaksimSmelchak
 Post subject: Epic_Moderator E-A Playtest Moderator Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:09 am 
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Dafrca,

That is up to you.
I am not sure what it will do other then let some people know that there are others who disagree with them. I would bet that they already know that.
However, do what you think it right.
Dafrca.


You were right. PG told me that he isn't interested in reading the thread since he thinks it would all be negative (He used the words "bitch and rant.").

I always find it a little depressing when people expect others to think negatively of them.

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Maksim-Smelchak.

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MaksimSmelchak
 Post subject: Epic_Moderator E-A Playtest Moderator Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:17 am 
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Primarch,

I think some may already know since I'm pretty sure they browse the forums even if they don't post. There's not that many Epic forums.


Some of PG's "mates" might know, but I don't think he does. He doesn't read this forum unless it's unofficially without logging in. I don't think he's coming here to Epiccomms for information.

Also, to be frank I see no real benefit in pointing it out. If you are asked about it, sure be open about it, there's nothing to hide. But otherwise I don't think there would be "appreciation" of the good intent behind the action given the friction of late.


You're probably right. PG wrote back after I let him know and wouldn't even read the thread. I sent him back a strong argument, but who knows?

I'd didn't let him know because I wanted his "appreciation," but out of a sense of decency to let him know that his actions as moderator were being discussed. I also thought that it might be a free source of infrmation to learn how others regard his actions. If I were in his shoes, I'd appreciate the opportunity.

I'd let it be.
Primarch.

I usually think of you as the rabblerouser, but you're probably right on this one.

Shalom,
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dafrca
 Post subject: Epic_Moderator E-A Playtest Moderator Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:23 am 
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Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 17 2003 Aug.,21:09)
That is up to you.
I am not sure what it will do other then let some people know that there are others who disagree with them. I would bet that they already know that.
However, do what you think it right.
Dafrca.


You were right. PG told me that he isn't interested in reading the thread since he thinks it would all be negative (He used the words "bitch and rant.").

I always find it a little depressing when people expect others to think negatively of them.

Well, I think this was to be expected. I think that regardless of your motives, PG will believe what he will. When you posted that you felt the need to inform him, I expected that he would believe it was a PG-bash and would not want to read it.

However, your belief that he should be informed needed to be dealt with. I would just let it go now.

Dafrca.

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dafrca
 Post subject: Epic_Moderator E-A Playtest Moderator Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:30 am 
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Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 17 2003 Aug.,21:17)
If I were in his shoes, I'd appreciate the opportunity.


Not me. If I believed that the thread was a rant about how bad I was doing and I believed I was doing a good job, I would think it would be a waste of my time to read the thread.

From PG's point of view why would he believe the thread would offer anything other then negative rants with little value? Why would he think this was where he could find true constructive critisism?

No, I think if I were him I would have made the same assumptions and choices. Remember his perceptions of both some members of this board and himself would be driving his choices not your motives.

Dafrca.

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Mojarn Piett
 Post subject: Epic_Moderator E-A Playtest Moderator Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 8:14 am 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 16 2003 Aug.,14:50)
Yes, I'll have to agree, we may agree or disagree, but we usually take it all in stride and no one really flames another poster. ?

However I did threaten to bomb Mojarn in Finland with an ICBM, but it was Primarch's idea! I wanted to use a MOAB! :laugh:

(Editor's note: What is a MOAB? Something, something bomb?)

Bring 'em on! with the population density of Finland you couldn't hit me however hard you tried. And you only get one try before those long range patrolmen I sent come for you... :;):

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primarch
 Post subject: Epic_Moderator E-A Playtest Moderator Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 2:13 pm 
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Hi!

Not me. If I believed that the thread was a rant about how bad I was doing and I believed I was doing a good job, I would think it would be a waste of my time to read the thread.
From PG's point of view why would he believe the thread would offer anything other then negative rants with little value? Why would he think this was where he could find true constructive critisism?
No, I think if I were him I would have made the same assumptions and choices. Remember his preceptions of both some members of this board and himself would be driving his choices not your motives.


I agree. His opinion on some of the forum members (like little 'ol me for example...) will affect his perception and thus nullify any need to read it or learn from it. This is the sort of thing you comment on and move on, I think the trench lines are pretty well set on this issue.

I usually think of you as the rabblerouser, but you're probably right on this one.


I definitely am, but I am also VERY practical. I saw no benefit from informing this and his reply is what I expected. I rarely waste efforts on things I know will bear no fruit.

On the other hand I think the importance of you mentioning it was more on the lines that YOU, as a person, can also feel better that you gave it your "best." That's important too, so don't consider it a total loss.

You're a very kind, courteous soul, Maksim, and your attention to "smoothing" relationships is commendable. Never lose that drive.

Besides we have enough "Primarchs" running around... :;):

Primarch.

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MaksimSmelchak
 Post subject: Epic_Moderator E-A Playtest Moderator Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 3:16 pm 
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Dafrca,

Not me. If I believed that the thread was a rant about how bad I was doing and I believed I was doing a good job, I would think it would be a waste of my time to read the thread.


I can see the line of thought, but it doesn't make much sense to me.

It's almost like he believes that the whole world is arrayed against him. The last time I remmber that was from music albums in the 1970's and 1980's.

From PG's point of view why would he believe the thread would offer anything other then negative rants with little value? Why would he think this was where he could find true constructive critisism?


I keep thinking because I've bothered to take the time to write him that he'd pay some attention to what I am saying.

His E-mails are pretty transparent. He's usually angry whenever I question him and whenever the letters are lighter, he wants to play around and make jokes. The letters are getting better and he is still writing if not very small replies.

I know it's S.O.P. (Standard Operating Procedure), but I'd think for someone that deals out so much criticism on the E-A Playtest Boards that he'd be able to take a little more himself.

No, I think if I were him I would have made the same assumptions and choices. Remember his perceptions of both some members of this board and himself would be driving his choices not your motives.

I guess you're right.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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MaksimSmelchak
 Post subject: Epic_Moderator E-A Playtest Moderator Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 3:21 pm 
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Primarch,

I agree. His opinion on some of the forum members (like little 'ol me for example...) will affect his perception and thus nullify any need to read it or learn from it. This is the sort of thing you comment on and move on, I think the trench lines are pretty well set on this issue.


Well, the trench lines may be set, but they wouldn't be hard to change. I've been receiving a lot of letters from members who would be happy to see the moderatorship change.

I think I could very easily get a majority of active members to sign a petition asking for changes.

On the other hand I think the importance of you mentioning it was more on the lines that YOU, as a person, can also feel better that you gave it your "best." That's important too, so don't consider it a total loss.


Investing in people is more risky than the stock market! :p

You're a very kind, courteous soul, Maksim, and your attention to "smoothing" relationships is commendable. Never lose that drive.

Thanks for the compliment.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Epic_Moderator E-A Playtest Moderator Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:22 pm 
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Well Mojarn, you may not get hit by an ICBM or MOAB, but, thanks to Dafrca, everyone knows what a MOAB is! :D ?

And Maksim, you have a tendency to be the "voice of reason"... ?I'd let the P/G thing die out... :;):

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dafrca
 Post subject: Epic_Moderator E-A Playtest Moderator Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:08 pm 
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Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 18 2003 Aug.,07:16)
Not me. If I believed that the thread was a rant about how bad I was doing and I believed I was doing a good job, I would think it would be a waste of my time to read the thread.


I can see the line of thought, but it doesn't make much sense to me.

[snip]

From PG's point of view why would he believe the thread would offer anything other then negative rants with little value? Why would he think this was where he could find true constructive critisism?


I keep thinking because I've bothered to take the time to write him that he'd pay some attention to what I am saying.


Maksim,

It is not as easy as he thinks the world is against him.

Look at it from this angle:

- Not to be mean, but who asked PG to step down in the last week?

- Which board has the most members who have disagreed with PG in the last few months?

- Where is the largest concentration of people who have posted disagreement with the playtest?

Now with those answers in mind, would you really trust this board to offer you critisism that would help make you a better person?

I will say again, your motives may be good, but it is not your motives that PG will use to make his choices.

It would be best if you let it drop.

Dafrca.

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primarch
 Post subject: Epic_Moderator E-A Playtest Moderator Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 6:44 pm 
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Well, the trench lines may be set, but they wouldn't be hard to change. I've been receiving a lot of letters from members who would be happy to see the moderatorship change.
I think I could very easily get a majority of active members to sign a petition asking for changes.


By "trenches," I meant he has his opinion and you and others have theirs. I don't think he pretty much "cares" about those opinions because he views them as hostile with no merit behind them. SO, his position may be "set" or "entrenched."

Now, if you indeed think you can have a change of moderator due to majority support, then do it, since I don't view the present positions as changing for the better.

A word of advice though, if a change of moderator is accepted, you may need to "put your money where your mouth is" and take up moderatorship on yourself because the first thing they'll ask you is "who" will do it if the current one is not liked. So before you go that route be sure you and the group that backs the proposal is in agreement before any action is taken. Otherwise you may find youself in a even greater mess.

I can see the line of thought, but it doesn't make much sense to me.
It's almost like he believes that the whole world is arrayed against him. The last time I remmber that was from music albums in the 1970's and 1980's.


Perhaps indeed that may be his view, since my negative interactions with him had me accused of many "conspiracies" and such. It may just be his way of looking at things. So I doubt any positive spin you may bring, regardless of your intentions will be well received.

Like I said before, just back off. It's not worth it. If you want him changed as moderator, then go through the motions, if not, just ignore the whole thing.

The bottom line is that the level of "attitude" may be lessened,
but not eliminated. You'll just have to live with that.

Primarch.

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Gandalf the Grey
 Post subject: Epic_Moderator E-A Playtest Moderator Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:11 pm 
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Just email Jervis at jervisj@games-workshop.com and tell him you don't like what has been going on.  I did.

I vote for Maksim as mod especially since he corrects my grammar!

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Epic_Moderator E-A Playtest Moderator Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:33 pm 
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Wow. Lots to take in.

Legion-4,
>> There are few men (or women), if any on this site or others, who have lead an Air Assault Rifle Platoon in the jungle...


I led a USMC Weapons Platoon through the Panamanian jungle. Does that count? ???? ?

We should trade war stories some time.

Gandalf,
>> A day after I mentioned here that I was now Gandalf the White in the Warhammer Society forum, I got kicked out again.


That's just lame. It might be possible that they have a program which checks for matching info, and you got caught.

For the record, I have no ill will towards you, either, Gandalf.

----------------------------------------

Regarding PG:

The guy's making a legitimate effort. He and I exchanged a series of E-mails over several days the last time this topic came up (several weeks ago) and I posted that I was unhappy with his moderating. As many of you know, he is the only person on the playtest board I have really butted heads with, and I have no reason to cut him any slack.

He is well aware of the issues, and I can tell a difference in his approach since then that I consider to be an improvement. For example, he now usually tries to make a softer, more complete statement about topic drift, rather than a pronouncement from on high. He is also more likely to let a subject drop as long as there is a minimum level of improvement. Both of those are suggestions that I specifically mentioned in our correspondence, so he obviously _is_ willing to listen to constructive criticism.

I think he has a way to go. His posts as moderator are still grating sometimes, and are still too authoritative, but I am convinced that this remains unintentional. It seems that his perceptions (particularly in regards to Gandalf) are still colored by personal issues, but I think he is making an effort to make his moderator posts non-personal.

In any case, we're stuck for now. Hopefully, you guys will take my word for it that he is trying and take that into account before being offended.

Also, despite his abrasiveness in his PG persona, he has come up with a number of good suggestions, and I usually find his arguments to be solid from a logical standpoint, although sometimes not compelling. To that extent, I would say he is a valuable playtester.

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Gandalf the Grey
 Post subject: Epic_Moderator E-A Playtest Moderator Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:47 pm 
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Well, he just moved my post back to the general discussion area so maybe he is making an effort.

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Gandalf the Grey
 Post subject: Epic_Moderator E-A Playtest Moderator Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 8:21 pm 
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I take that back. Now he's moved it again, as well as others.  What the hell is he doing?

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