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New FW Epic Vulture
Legion 4
 Post subject: New FW Epic Vulture
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:04 pm 
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We dropped the whole Air to Air thing (that's a whole other game !) ... Aircraft come on in a modified version of the SM1 Off Board Support/E40K rules, get Flak Attack(s), [or not],(including Jinxing), drops or fires ordinance and flys off to rearm ... ?Simple ... :;):

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CrimsonFury
 Post subject: New FW Epic Vulture
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:40 pm 
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Hey Legion, i'm intrigued by your aircraft rules, can you please explain the details? (bear in mind I started playing Epic when Epic40K was released, so I don't know how SM1\2 aircraft worked).
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nealhunt
 Post subject: New FW Epic Vulture
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:16 pm 
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I agree that the aircraft rules are a bit off.  They just don't flow like the rest of the game.  I'd much rather just have a system for calling in air strikes, even if that means you don't put models on the table.

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primarch
 Post subject: New FW Epic Vulture
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:49 pm 
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Hi!

Aircraft and thier rules have always been problems in any version of epic.

Net epic has gone through several and still no satisfactory rules have arisen.

Epic is mostly thought with ground combat in mind, more so in the older versions.

I actually like the epic 40k rules for fliers, I thought they were clever. Perhaps they should have kept those.

Primarch

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Tas
 Post subject: New FW Epic Vulture
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:28 pm 
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It seems that most people have a problem with flyers in way way or another - either insufficient or too much detail.  Its nice to put the models on the table, but at what cost to playability?

I wonder if the e40k rules could be adapted for EA as a solution?

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Legion 4
 Post subject: New FW Epic Vulture
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:31 pm 
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Well let me see if I can give you a quick lesson in calling in CAS. A command stand when activated using SM1 rules, on Fire Fire and not in C/C must roll 4+. Place support counter next to stand to show call was made, if successful. ?Next turn, activate aircraft by placing them next friendly board edge. ?Then move them to target. Any AAA unit in range may take a shot, if on FF or ADV orders, along the flight path. ?This shot counts as the AAA unit's activation and is marked with a Snap Fire counter. ?The Aircraft if hit may Jinx and make a SAV roll of 4+. ?If Aircraft survives he must roll for scatter of Ordinance, using Scatter dice. Or SM1 Barrage Template Scatter rules. ?Place 6cm Barrage Template on target touching flying base edge. Make your attack based on weapons carried or roll for scatter if you had to Jinx. ?After that fly off the board to E40K cardboard airfield and take it from there. ?That's the basics and you can modify it to any Epic system you use. ?It's a melding of SM1,E40K and E:A rules. ?I'm probably one of the few guys playing Epic that was trained to call in airstikes ... so this method seems reasonable to me ! ? :;):

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iblisdrax
 Post subject: New FW Epic Vulture
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:35 am 
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Good stuff L4!  But what do you do about intercepts, and CAP missions?

my 2cents,

iblisdrax

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primarch
 Post subject: New FW Epic Vulture
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:33 am 
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Hi!

The problem is that if you what your flier miniatures to see tabletop action, in other words, actually be on the game table for a reasonable length of time, then most rules are kind of cumbersome since it creates a lot of artificiality. You need to state how much a plane moves in a turn, how it interacts with ground units and other fliers.

Normally you'd see none of this over the battlefield. It happens high in the skies out of sight. But that sucks for a miniature game since if you abstracted this, why need flier minis?

So the problem comes from wanting to represent a aspect of battle that ususally ranges in an area far greater than the normal battlefield on a gaming table.

No easy solution.  :{

Primarch

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Markconz
 Post subject: New FW Epic Vulture
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:23 am 
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Quote (primarch @ 17 2004 Feb.,20:49)
I actually like the epic 40k rules for fliers,

Primarch says something nice about Epic40k '..gasp'  :O  :;):

Mind you as has been said, the trouble with the Epic40k aircraft rules are that you never really get to see the models...  I prefer the EA rules where the  planes are on the table.  

I think the EA aircraft rules are slightly clunky... but still very playable.  I do agree with CrimsonFury about them being too tough for the points however, especially the transports - they are virtually unstoppable.  Ground AA and interceptors need to be better at their job.  I've made comments to that effect on the official forums.  Two thunderbolts is unlikely to do anything worthwhile to a flight of fightabombas, let alone an Ork Landa (speaking of which I've finally finished assembling two scratchbuilt Landas!! Hooray... pictures to follow soon...).

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Legion 4
 Post subject: New FW Epic Vulture
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 6:20 am 
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Iblisdrax, as I mentioned before, further up on this thread, we don't do Air to Air.  All our air missions are CAS.  We feel that CAP, Interception, etc. should be a whole other game.  We base this on our experience in previous wargames from Avalon Hill, SPI, etc.   In those games, like Squad Leader, Panzer Blitz, Kampfpanzer, etc., etc. they only have CAS rules and concentrate on the ground battle.  And the SM1 Off Board Support rules, (which are well done and we still use), you call in barrages and missiles from distant batteries, orbiting space craft, etc.  We always felt those rules also represented CAS, now with the aircraft models we can take it a step further.  And the paradigm shift required AAA to be brought into the game ...

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Mojarn Piett
 Post subject: New FW Epic Vulture
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:04 am 
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It seems the general impression is positive. Now that I've read the rules, I think I agree. Of course, I wouldn't be a wargamer if I didn't want to change anything, but I've come up with only two house rules so far, and at present am not sure if one of them is worth the trouble.  :)

Now if I only could coerce someone to play a couple of games with me...  }:)

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Tas
 Post subject: New FW Epic Vulture
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:27 am 
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Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 18 2004 Feb.,16:04)
I've come up with only two house rules so far, and at present am not sure if one of them is worth the trouble. ?:)

I'd love to see them, maybe feedback here can help you fine tune them

And ALL wargamers want to change things  :)

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primarch
 Post subject: New FW Epic Vulture
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 9:19 pm 
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Hi!

Marckonz, you summed up the two stances that epic rules for fliers.

On one hand you can get an easy sensible rules, that work great, BUT your nice flier models are merely an abstraction

OR

Slightly more complex rules, a bit clunky BUT you get to to USE those models.

For mini gamers the second alternative is a necessity not an option.

So while we could agree that the epic 40k flier rules are better designed, they will "fail" because we dont get to "show off" our flier models.

Which is the point of playing a mini game, eh?

Primarch

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Legion 4
 Post subject: New FW Epic Vulture
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:57 am 
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As I said, the SM1 Off Board Support rules simulated airstikes reasonably well and no aircraft were used.  However, the models add the additional Flak vs. Aircraft battle, and I think my rule modifactions are simple enough to do that.  Models were introduced for one reason - to sell - not to necessarily make it a better game ...  So as always, do what works for you !        :;):

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Hergrmir
 Post subject: New FW Epic Vulture
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 6:04 am 
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Speaking of which, was there any further word on this Air War thing being planned?
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