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New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault

 Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:33 am 
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I really liked the part about "dancing, singing, etc.", Maksim ! :laugh:

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 Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:40 am 
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Legion-4,

--------------------
Sword,
quote:
--------------------
Hmmm, I sure seem to have ruffled someone's feathers.
Is it just me, or are Eldar players particularly sensitive? ? ?
--------------------
We can't help it. All the dancing, singing, and makeup get us worked up.
It's kind of like a KISS concert!

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.


I really liked the part about "dancing, singing, etc.," Maksim! ?


Yes, I was pretty proud about that part. I thought it was pretty funny! I can imagine Eldar at a KISS concert!

Very amusing! ?:D ? ??? ? :p

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 Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:05 am 
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Primarch,

Much of my poor expectations come from the point that, while I don't support Epic-A, why couldn't you, Neal, Dafrca, Jimbo, Cybershadow and a host of other serious, reasonable people aren't the ones LEADING Epic-A or moderating those forums or otherwise "Calling the shots?"


I don't care if I know who's doing it (it's not important), but it sure wouldn't hurt either. We're not the only group of Epic players out there, but we're probably the crankiest! :p

Why are those least-qualified in experience with the game in all its editions or lack the patience or personality to be a credible open moderator or leader the ones in charge?


You know, I don' think that PG is the least-qualified person. He has been playing the game since SM-2/TL (or at least he told me that before) and he must own a ton of lead.

I'd really like this thread to steer away from any personal attacks on PG; he doesn't deserve that (and neither do any of us!).

I am very disappointed with the way that he (or Epic_moderator if they're different people) is running the show.

That's where my pissy streak stems from regarding Epic-A. It may have gone "far," but it hasn't gone farther because Jervis didn't take the initiative to really organize the playtest forum and its subsequent feedback. Leaving leadership to a person with an inane high number of posts is NOT the way to do it. To be frank, it would have been better served having no moderators at all than the way it is currently handled.

I don' think I blame Jervis. That guy has a lot on his platter if he trying to run the whole Specialist Games show. I just hope he learns from this experience. A lot of people with a high level of maturity write him like Dafrca. I would have picked one of the mature people (Not to imply that PG is immature. I don't think that.) that wrote me like Dafrca. Of course, it's easy to say things with hind sight.

I realize that you and others on this forum are on that board, but honestly, whatever good points you seem to put up, a lot of them get drowned out by less "coherent" voices. Granted it depends what each individual is willing to "handle" it, but for my particular personality and way of doing things, I see lots of wasted effort there. Of course, that's a matter of taste and opinion.

Sure, some of the effort is drowned out by the white noise, but that's life.

I can live with it as long as the worst of it is taken care of. I'm starting to think that the "worst of it" isn't presently being taken care of at the E-A Playtest boards.

I don't have a problem with moderators having an active presence, I dont think that is the problem since Cybershadow has an active presence and I don't think ANYONE can make an argument that he is intrusive or unfair (quite the contrary in my view!).

CS is definitely the "model" of a good moderator. Since I became a more active moderator, we communicate a lot about potential problems and keep our eyes open. He remains "laissez faire," but still takes care of things.

I think that Epic40k.co.uk is a very well moderated board. I can't remmber the last time we saw a flame war here or someone's feelings get hurt. ?

The problem in this case is purely that of an individual's personality and how it is obviously "ticking people off." In that particular case, perhaps a moderator with no direct participation is best.

I'm still not sure about "anonymous moderators." I'd rather have a person who has no problem being who is and is proud and happy to be a moderator.

A moderator who has to hide behind a false identity has some serious shortcomings as far as I can tell.

I agree that we should follow a "no cursing" policy on these boards. I for one LOVE cussing, but will go no farther than "crap" as my naughty word.

That's mighty big of you, Primarch! :D

You know what the first step towards recovery is...

Don't you? LOL :D ?

I promise that next week I will open my last six-pack of "GW goodwill" and use it enthusiastically. ?

You make it sound like taking bitter medicine.

Maybe you should have some hard liquor with it? :;):

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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 Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:12 am 
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What up! Boy, lots of points to respond to. ?

Ah yes, I remember when I used to be that way, right after the release of... Epic-40k... It's fun to heckle those with thin skin, especially when defending such an easy target as that game.


Oh... my... GOD!!! Primarch, when are you going to get it and realize that Epic-40k is a good game!?!?!

I kid, I kid. ?:p

Seriously, Epic-40k is cool, just a different animal. I know you aren't going to agree with me here, but pointlessly arguing is my style...

I actually started posting my favorite detachments on my site. ?

Why? I DON'T KNOW! No one cares!

I've noticed that. You've been much more restrained that I've come to expect.


Oh man, Maksim, I'm glad you didn't spit out something like 'more mature.' Hahaha.

I usually don't pick fights, so this just means I haven't really gotten pissed yet. Besides, I know the Geek will delete my posts and I don't want to crash the site in a fit of anger.

By the way, Gandalf, avoid the profanity, please. I changed your inappropriate language to the word "lamos" instead.

Okay, if you are going to edit me, we'll have to come to some compromise as "lamos" doesn't work for me.

How about if I forget to watch my language you can replace it with... damn!

I don't know any lesser offensive words... hmm...

I'll have to get back to you. ?:laugh:

I think you have a really poor attitude regarding the "Epic establishment."

I don't know if he does. Maksim. ?

Remember when Epic Mag came out along with AT-II?

I hated AT-II, because I didn't want a separate system for Titans in my Epic game, nor was I interesting in playing War Machines without infantry and tanks. Anyway, it was poorly done, not really playtested, and after a few issues, Jervis admitted he threw it out there just to give Epic some attention, since it was in the gutter. ?

I sometimes feel the same way about what is going on with Epic-A. There are some things Jervis won't bend on that the fans seem to really want, so I feel 90% of this is Jervis alone and the rest is minor stuff he doesn't care about changing, just to give Epic-A some marketing. For some reason AT-II really annoyed me, and I would have rather seen new army lists and stuff.

I've noticed that PG is from Canada while the "Epic-moderator" is from the USA, which means that if PG is the "Epic-moderator" that he has either slipped and typoed his home or is deliberately misleading us.

Of course. He knows he is not popular as the moderator.

Should moderators be members of the board or "anonymous" entities?

I don't care, they usually piss me off regardless.

I'm going to have to take the time to read the posts made by this "Sword!"

Yeah, you both (Legion-4 and Swords) would have had a lot to add to the game had you both posted comments early on. ?

See ya.

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 Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:27 am 
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Gandalf,

Oh man, Maksim, I'm glad you didn't spit out something like 'more mature.' Hahaha.
I usually don't pick fights, so this just means I haven't really gotten pissed yet. Besides, I know the Geek will delete my posts and I don't want to crash the site in a fit of anger.


I think the "Epic_moderator" (or PG if they're the same) deleted my post "Banter and chatter TWO," which was reply to his post "Banter and chatter," which is locked and can't be responded to.

Okay, if you are going to edit me, we'll have to come to some compromise as "lamos" doesn't work for me.
How about if I forget to watch my language you can replace it with... damn!
I don't know any lesser offensive words... hmm...
I'll have to get back to you. ?


May I suggest "doo doo head?"

My roommate caught himself using the s-word (the one for excrement) in front of his mother and switched to "doo doo head." It's very amusing, but it sure beats sounding like a heathen (but you'd probably take pride in that knowing you... :;): ).

I don't care, they usually piss me off regardless.

If I haven't told you, Gandalf, you're my favorite anarchist! ?:D

They used to tell my I had a problem with authority when I was in the military, I can't IMAGINE what they would tell you! :angry:

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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 Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 2:30 pm 
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Hi!

I love this forum, where else could you talk about such a topic without devolving into flame wars?

Regarding what Maksim posted on the playtest forum, I'm willing to wager it won't get deleted, since I think PG reads this forum and might do the contrary just to spite you... :;):

Primarch.

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 Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 2:38 pm 
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Hi!

That's mighty big of you, Primarch! ?
You know what the first step towards recovery is...
Don't you? LOL ?


Yes, like alcoholics, the first step in recovery is to admit you have a problem...

...Hi! My name is Primarch, and I like to curse like a sailor *@%&! Excuse me, I need help! ?:D

You make it sound like taking bitter medicine.
Maybe you should have some hard liquor with it?


Perhaps Cyanide, although playing a game of Epic-40k would be just as lethal... }:)

Oops! That just slipped out... :;):

I need professional help... :D

Primarch.

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 Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 2:44 pm 
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Hi!

Oh... my... GOD!!! Primarch, when are you going to get it and realize that Epic-40k is a good game!?!?!
I kid, I kid. ?
Seriously, Epic-40k is cool, just a different animal. I know you aren't going to agree with me here, but pointlessly arguing is my style...


When I'm dead. Perhaps not even then, since I have a problem with lying for long periods of time... :;):

May I suggest "doo doo head?"


:D ?:D ?:D

This is SOOO funny, it left me cracking up for about ten minutes!

My little two-year-old daughter says "doo-doo head" also, too funny.

Primarch.

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 Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 3:08 pm 
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Primarch,

Regarding what Maksim posted on the playtest forum, I'm willing to wager it won't get deleted, since I think PG reads this forum and might do the contrary just to spite you...


I was sort of wagering that not being able to just "sweep it under the carpet" like he did with the other post would create a conundrum for him.

If he does delete it then we'll all know what has happened.

He is still a member of this forum (last time I checked) although he hasn't posted here in awhile. I could check to see if he's been by the site, but it doesn't really matter.

- I did receive an E-mail from him and he wants me to delete the post myself, because "I haven't checked" my facts and, in fact, lots of people are sending complaints about you (Maksim) and Swords' bickering in the thread."

- Up until a few days ago when I reminded him that there was no way to contact the Epic_Moderator so the only comments would be from those posters who are " in the know" and know that PG is still the Epic_Moderator despite the Canada/USA subterfuge.

- I don't rule out that there might be people complaining about Swords and I, but, if so, I would guess that they are all people from PG's coterie being that people couldn't contact the Epic_moderator until a few days ago.

- I'd like to be able to check my facts, but I don't read minds and none of the people sending "complaints about you (Maksim) and Swords' bickering in the thread" have posted anything publicly as we tend to do things here at Epic40k.co.uk.

- I'm still wondering why he called out "conversation" bickering since we're not fighting one iota. "Bickering" does indicate an argument, does it not?

- He should call it "Banter and chatter" like he did before... LOL ?:D

OK. Rant mode off!

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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 Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:16 pm 
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Who would be complaining about you and Swords?

SO far you guys have been really easy going. If there's been a complaint about anyone, it has to be about me!

All I have to say is consider the source.

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 Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:30 pm 
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Wow! A lot of great discussion!

And I guess guys like Swords & I may or may not have influenced the outcome of the rules. However I believe Jervis had a "vision" of what he wanted, and in reality it did not turn out too bad. But time will tell. ?

Again, I'll have to look at Swords posts, I didn't realize that there was someone out there with a similar "take" on things.

And an interesting observation, Maksim, I didn't realize I had a writing style out of the '50s, but I'll take that as a good thing - I'm very "old school!" :laugh:

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 Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:59 pm 
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Quote (primarch @ 14 2003 Aug.,20:36)
Much of my poor expectations come from the point that, while I don't support Epic-A, why couldn't you, Neal, Dafrca, Jimbo, Cybershadow and a host of other serious, reasonable people aren't the ones LEADING Epic-A or moderating those forums or otherwise "Calling the shots?"

This is a good question. I would like to take a shot at answering it with a guess.

When I first joined the Playtest form I was unsure how much our input would matter. So at that time I was posting maybe once a week or so. I was busy trying to learn the rules as published (Jervis' word docs).

PG was posting every day and twice on Sunday. AFAIK, he was the only person who was always posting daily. I believe they asked him to moderate based on his "attendance" to the boards. Thus I think they did not spend a lot of time locating a board moderator.

There is another point; the company has not put a lot of money into the board. Despite the fact it is paid for by GW/Fanatic it is a low priority. They do not have any official company person assigned to visit the boards in any regular cycles. Jervis comes when he can but that is it.

Contrast this with WotC. Each board has a moderator (read volunteer) who is assigned to daily upkeep, known as WizO?s. Then they have a Real WotC employee who is tasked to oversee the boards on a daily basis.

Fanatic first set up the playtest as a restricted board, people had to register and be given access. I would guess it was not intended to be a public board nor to be going forever. Playtest and then return players to the GW boards for fan discussions. Things changed over time.

Just some thoughts. :laugh:

dafrca

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 Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:24 pm 
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Oh and one other point: If I disagree with Gandalf or some of the others I respect but do not always agree with, I hope I am not seen as just a "Yes-Man" or "Fanboy" but rather a person who has an opinion.

I hope I have disagreed enough with both Jervis and the PG core to be seen as someone who can make his own choices.  :laugh:

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 Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:30 pm 
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I can't help myself....

I love the banter! :p

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 Post subject: New Krieg + Feral Ork lists up in the vault
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:39 pm 
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Sorry this post is long.

>> a. No one with any power to change things cares what you say.


I think this is very wrong. Jervis has shown himself willing to bend on many things, and while not all of them have gone in the direction I wanted, I don't begrudge him his disagreement with my personal preferences.?I could rattle off a litany of things he changed based on feedback, and some he didn't change when he wanted due to howls of indignation.

>> - b. All you get is flak from the fanboys and the "yes-men"...


Good to know I'm a fanboy/yes-man, because I tend to agree with Jervis. Honestly, I think he and I just have similar tastes in how the game runs.

>> Should moderators be members of the board or "anonymous" entities?

There is a problem with both. ?As a member, it becomes difficult to separate the "member's" opinion from the "as-moderator" opinion, both for the general population and for the moderator. As an anonymous entity, it can be easy to objectify the moderator.

In PG's case, he is abrasive. He knows he is abrasive. We've discussed it before. As a result, when he was asked to moderate, he figured that people would have a hard time differentiating between his "mix-it-up," argumentative style and his job as moderator.

He was right.


As it is, I think an anonymous account is best. He has put significant effort into doing a good job, IMHO, even if it has fallen short.

I do think he tends to give some people more latitude than others, largely because he knows them personally and has a good grasp on what their inflections would be if they were standing there speaking. In other words, he is less likely to misinterpret their posts as hostile.

>> whatever good points you seem to put up, a lot of them get drowned out by less "coherent" voices.

I mostly agree with this. ?I just wouldn't say it was all "good points."

There are 4 guys:
- Opsmed
- PG
- Marauder
- Hoplite -
Who all post frequently and play against each other a lot. As a result, they have a fairly insular group that has a strong voice. In the past, their collective opinion has held a lot of sway against more diverse opinions. They can change things fairly quickly when all of them agree, and it's hard to "undo" their suggestions.

A prime case is the Ork KoS issue. They collectively howled until it was decided that it was a real problem. They even convinced me. However, over the past month or two, it has come out that no one outside their group really feels that it is/was an issue, and the majority of the board represents a much wider range of style of play. My personal playtesting has convinced me I shouldn't have listened.

Hopefully, the Ork list restrictions will be lifted, but it may be too late, as there is a small window between Jervis's vacation and when the text goes to the printer.

------------------------------------

Gandalf (since you referenced it):

I said I was sick of the split fire argument because it has gone through at least 3 exhaustive arguments. While I can understand if a new person brings up an older, resolved issue, I know you have been in on all 3 of the iterations. All it's doing is clogging up the board and stirring up a bunch of bad blood.

In the past, I have also dogged PG out about doing similar things (not letting an argument drop). In fact, I was harsh enough about it that I received a reprimand in one of the Yahoo groups.

Don't get me wrong. To quote E. E. Montaigne, I enjoy "a harsh and manly fellowship. One that delights in the rudeness and vigor of its intercourse." I love to dig into an argument and fight passionately about it even to the point of getting ridiculously worked up over something silly, but when there is no more progress to be made, it's time to put it aside and move on.

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