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Thoughts on Swordwind
Legion 4
 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2005 4:17 pm 
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Yes, Jimbo, you being an old time gamer and history guy, sees my points. ?And yes, setting up heavier FA takes time, (I've worked with SP 155mm and 8 inchers as well as towed 105 and 155 FA and 81mm and 4.2 inch mortars) ... so we see a "glitch" in the rules. ?To me it comes down to how long a turn is ... faster mov't rates = longer turns (all things being equal in our paradigm). ?To an old "Slammer" like me FA shooting and moving in the same turn is like having horses walk on water ... it just don't happen ... :;): ?And besides Jimbo is almost always right, anyway  ! :D




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PitFiend
 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2005 11:37 pm 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 15 2005 May,16:05)
Well, I had a "friend" named Ginger and she was a real Redhead ... too ! :;):

Meheheheh. I've got a half-assed "competition" going on with a mate over redheads. I'm up 3-2 at the mo.   :laugh:

/to the point

Points taken on the FA. Support weapons need time to set up.

But.

Looking at the various types of FA available in Epic, most of it's on track units (rapier, thudd gun), anti-grav (eldar), is launchers where the shell contains the launching mechanism which won't take much setting up (mole mortar, pulsa rockets), or doesn't need bedding down to compensate for recoil (tarantulas (lascannons) and the weird ork energy weapons).

So there's not that many are gonna need much prep time. And those could be specifically move-or-fire.

Or am i still wrong (and a grotesquely ugly freak)?




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Jimbo
 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 12:30 am 
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This sounds like a problem defining exactly what Field Artillery actually is.

I would believe that myself and L4 were referring to large field artillery pieces, whereas the models you mention are very much light weapons.

I see field artillery as such things like 155mm SPGs and MLRS which are heavy and take time to setup.

Rapiers and Tarantulas I see more like AT missiles (M901) or recoiless 40mm rifles, which are designed to be moved and fired quickly.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 6:45 am 
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Yes, Jimbo is correct again. Field Artillery would be as we described.  A Basilisk would be like a SP 155 and a Manticore and Whirlwind = an MLRS. A Bombard = one of those heavy siege mortars like the Skoda 350mm (IIRC) used in WWI and to a less extent WWII. These would take time to set up.  Thud Guns, Mole Mortars would be light artillery type weapons and Rapier and Tarantulas = AT weapons.  These weapons would set up much more quickly compared to the heavier artillery mentioned above.  I have no problem with these lighter weapons moving and shooting in the same turn. And the T/gun and M/mortar could fire indirect, they are a form on FA.  In SM1 (and I believe this was done correctly), T/guns & M/mortars could move and shoot but suffer a -1 to hit, (the same goes for Whirlwinds, it's a lighter system and we played it this way).  The others must be on First Fire orders (E:A's Sustained) to shoot direct or indirect (+1).  That is much more reality based ...  A Griffin would be an SP Mortar and would have to be on FF, too, IMO. However, the easier solution is weapons that can fire indirect must be on FF to fire (at all). That is reality-centric and simple yet playable. That maybe our/the solution ...         :D

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Tas
 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 6:54 am 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 16 2005 May,01:05)
Very rarely does FA fire direct, right Tas ? ?

Direct fire from the guns is very, very uncool. ?Everything has gone horribly wrong and its do this or die. ?

Of course charging into a firebase when they guns are levelled and firing AP rounds is horribly nasty for the attacker, but its last ditch defence mode for the gunners




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Legion 4
 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 7:00 am 
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Agreed on all points, Tas ! :)

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iblisdrax
 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 1:42 pm 
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I did manage to fight off a det of Eldar CC troops once, whichever one can teleport...cant remember which.  He came in after my Artillery Co.  and got too close to a Baneblade which (fortunately for me) had failed every activation roll and was sitting back there.  Killed all the Eldar, no casualties to the Arty.  Combination of good rolls for me, bad for him, and you gotta love those IG commisars!  :D

my 2cents,

iblisdrax

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vanvlak
 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 2:03 pm 
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Hmmm - would you include WWII German 88mm flak used as anti-tank in the 'desperate measures' list? Curious.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 3:31 pm 
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Not quite "V", the dreaded "88" was an Anti-Aircraft gun that was pushed into the AT roll. It's long range, accuracy and high muzzle velocity made it deadly to allied AFVs.  However it could not fire indirect ... like a field gun, howitzer, or mortar. It had to have LOS.  In actuality the "88" was not designed as an AT weapon but evolved into it out of need.  Field Artillery are the weapons systems that I mentioned above. They were designed to fire indirect, to be called in by forward troops and probably never see their targets.  And usually fired HE (high explosive) ammo. AT guns were designed to kill AFVs and AA guns designed to shoot down aircraft.  These last two forms of artillery could not fire indirect ...  FA, AT and AA are guns but all were designed for different roles.  So to be "reality-centric", in E:A, any weapons that can fire indirect, should be on Sustained (FF), and not fire on the turn it moves.

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vanvlak
 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 4:53 pm 
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Hmm, ok, I get the point, and I guess you and Jimbo get my vote. Interesting, this.

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PitFiend
 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 9:34 pm 
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Hmmm. On the other hand, your Basilisk is described in the fluff (one of the 40k IG books i think) as not just being an artillery vehicle, it's described as being used for direct fire during assaults.

And, your Leman battle tanks fire HE dustbin rounds as standard rather than AP, where any real world tank is armed to just fire AP.

I know there were WWII (probably) AVRE tanks which fired dustbin rounds, which were used to support the regular tanks against infantry, but i've never even seen pics of those.

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iblisdrax
 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 5:04 am 
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There were some 5 inch guns mounted on WWII battleships and cruisers that were used in dual purpose roles, ie they were used as AA guns with proximity fused rounds and could fire indirectly with normal HE rounds.  Those were mounted on ships, but I suppose one could design a modenized version.... if there were a reason to.  ???

my 2cents,

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 5:56 am 
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O.K. guys, any form of artillery can fire direct. ?FA was used in direct fire roles in many urban battles, like Stalingrad, Manila, etc. Tanks and FA can fire numerous type rounds based on target. ?Example, the 88 after it proved to be a good AT weapon, the Germans made AT as well as AA rounds. Tanks in many cases, carry both AT and HE rounds so they can engage various targets. US FA in WWII and Korea had HE and AT rounds, so that if the had to they could fire either based on the target.  AT would be used in direct fire mode against AFVs. ?Most M1 tanks in Iraq were probably carrying mostly AT rounds and there are various AT rounds available. However,
HE/Anti-personnel are made for the M1's 120mm. ?You guys are getting a bit confused I think. ?MBTs are designed to shoot while moving, or in WWII stop briefly and shoot then move on. And can load various rounds - AT, HE, etc. ?FA has to set up, align the guns so they all shoot in the same direction, etc. and were designed to fire indirect. ?But that does not mean if they had to, they could not aim directly at targets, like tanks that had broken thru the front line and were roaming in rear areas. ?And this happened in WWII and Korea, on occasions.  In Vietnam, FA and tanks had "Beehive" rounds that made the cannon into a giant shot gun and were used in direct fire mode against VC and NVA. ?The point of the question was why in E:A FA could shoot and move in the same turn ? ? In reality it shouldn't as Jimbo and I have stated. ?Being a former military professional, my knowlegde of warfare is a bit more extensive than most. So my perceptions will be different than the average gamer. ?Having commanded air assault infantry and mech company teams in combined arms operations during a 10? year period, I see things from a "tainted", reality-centric point of view. ?A recommendation, besides watching more of the History Channel, is get a copy of "TANK" by Macksey & Batchlor. ?It is a good tutorial on AFVs, FA, rounds, etc. ? ? :;):




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Mojarn Piett
 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 7:46 am 
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If we were talking about a RealWurld game I'd agree. But in RealWurld there are no plasma or laser cannons in use either. Not to mention void shields, teleportation devices, spirit stones, warp gates and the like.

Maybe they just have good fire control computators or whatever. Even though Imperial technology seems to be at the between-the-wars level as the tanks have no suspension or (in 40k) rangefinders.

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Tas
 Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 7:56 am 
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L4 is correct, but one other pertinent point needs to be brought out: trajectory

Naval Guns and guns designed to direct fire (AT, AA) have flat trajectories. ?Its makes for the fastest way to the targets and the most accurate means. ?It also means that the guns get crested - ie cant hit targets behind ridges etc because the flat trajectory will hit the mountain, thus targets in these dead zones are immune to fire (unless the gun move positon of course)

Artillery (especially howitzers) is designed to 'lob' shells high and over intervening terrain to hit any target location.

Thus over a very short distance, yes you can direct fire your field artillery or even bombard a land target with your naval gun, but their fire control and ballistics are different and dont swap well.  Thus you do get AP (eg beehive) rounds for arty, but its for self defence of the firebase only.




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