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Shagrats Skyboyz
Gandalf the Grey
 Post subject: Shagrats Skyboyz
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 6:44 pm 
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Not Epic40k Legion, the original Space Marine and Adeptus Titanicus rules.  They were made for Space Mariens, Imperial Guard, Orks, Squats, and Chaos, but they didn't release any rules for the Eldar athough they made the minis for them. I was wondering if anyone through something together for them way back. . .  :o

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Shagrats Skyboyz
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 7:03 pm 
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Not to rain on the parade, but the "18th century" close combat stuff is in there because it is heroic. ?After all, part of the fun of the game is the escapism. ?People want to be heroes, especially gamers. ?There is just something more dynamic about the blood-and-guts, in-your-face close combat stuff than having a sniper sit back and pick off enemy soldiers.

For the record, I was in the Marine Corps infantry for 6 years, even serving as a weapons platoon commander while enlisted. ?I completely understand your points on the realism side.

It's the "unreal" parts of the game make it exciting for the vast majority of their target audience. ?GW markets to adolescent boys for the most part, while seasoned grognards that cut their teeth on Squad Leader, i.e. most of us on here, are significantly lower on their desired customer list.

I feel like I'm becoming the "slavering fanboy" of the forums here recently.  It's not that I don't agree that some of the complaints are valid, just that I recognize GW's persepctive when it comes to the business side.  I think, perhaps, we just need to come to grips with the fact that what we think makes a game cool is not necessarily what will sell, especially to GW's target demographic.

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Gandalf the Grey
 Post subject: Shagrats Skyboyz
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 7:36 pm 
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Neal! Your FIRED!

Just kidding. You are right on many points, but I think the older gamers spend more money than the younger ones.  Hey, I am only 30 so why am I being so hard on myself????????

Hahaha :D

ANYWAY, GW still produces excellent minis and whatnot, but maybe we just feel cheated as we've been with them all these years while they have expanded, taught people how to play their games, and when the time came to help out with one of our favorites, we felt kind of ignored.  I think this is all coming out in another thread I just replied to on Max's Woe be da Orks! But I see your points.

I would prefer though, if I could just say, "THEY WILL DO WHAT I SAY, OR THEY WILL PERISH. . ."  :angry:

Dude, this  :angry:  guy rocks! I'm gonna find a way to use him on all of my posts.

See ya.

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Tas
 Post subject: Shagrats Skyboyz
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 2:17 am 
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>Not to rain on the parade, but the "18th century" close >combat stuff is in there because it is heroic.  After all, part >of the fun of the game is the escapism.  

Absoluelty, hence my earlier comments about warGAMES vice War simulations.

Same as the fact that we try to balance scenarios, when every general is trying to make every scenario as unbalnced (in his favour) as is possible to as near as possible pre-determine his victory

>I recognize GW's persepctive when it comes to the business >side

Which is a reality check for all of us, becasue all we want is the perfect fun, and can easily forget that at the end of the day this income pays people's bills and puts food ont he table.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Shagrats Skyboyz
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 6:07 am 
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Wow, I go to work and I miss out on all the Fun !!! ?Well where do I start ? ?Gandalf, got your PM, but had to go to work so I could afford E-A, and thank you. ?Cybershadow posted the link to Eldar Aspects for E40K, we use modified SM2 rules and as I said NetEpic rules may be worth a a look. ?Primarch, anyone can call me anything but late for pay day :laugh: !!! ? Tas & Neal, I get the Heroic bit, SM1 even had heroic action rules, we like them and use them. (And AH's Squad Leader was a pretty good game!) ?I guess I just get satisfaction from taking out a target at range. :o ?:laugh: ?And bottom line G/W needs to make profits (I have a couple of business degrees, hanging around here somewhere :;): ). ? So I'm going to do what I have been doing with all Epic, buy the games and models, play "heretic hybrid" rules we like. And save a little $ for Kitty on the weekends ... :blush: ?Good discussion Guys ! ?I'm going to check out the "Woe be da Orks" topic !

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Jimbo
 Post subject: Shagrats Skyboyz
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 9:13 am 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 06 2003 May,19:03)
I feel like I'm becoming the "slavering fanboy" of the forums here recently. ?

ah ha someone else to take my place

:D

phew

It's not that I don't agree that some of the complaints are valid, just that I recognize GW's persepctive when it comes to the business side.


as an ex-business studies/economics teacher I know what you mean.

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Jimbo
 Post subject: Shagrats Skyboyz
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 9:18 am 
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Quote (Gandalf the Grey @ 06 2003 May,19:36)
Just kidding. You are right on many points, but I think the older gamers spend more money than the younger ones.

you would have thought so, wouldn't you

of course there are exceptions, there are gamers out there who have no problem with spending three hundred pounds on a Thunderhawk, but even amongst older gamers they are a very small minority

most of GW's core market (adolescent teenagers) have more spending power than your average older gamer (and their parents do as well).

What that means, is that the younger gamers will spend more than the older gamers and that it makes more of GWs income - compare the core games of WHFB and WH40K against the Fanatic (read older gamer) products in terms of income.

One of the reasons for this is if you compare Warhammer 40K to say a video games console and a few games, WH40K comes in a lot cheaper...

I now spend less on gaming now then I did when I was a spotty teenager both in actual, real and proportionate terms.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Shagrats Skyboyz
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 3:37 pm 
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Legion4>> I guess I just get satisfaction from taking out a target at range.

Heh.  As a former heavy weapons guy, I agree whole-heartedly.  There's just nothing like that feeling of unleashing destructive fury and watching something pulverized.  From Gladiator "When I give the signal, unleash Hell."

My opening salvo on the playtest forums was that chaos should, according to all the fluff, be much more shooty, especially Tzeentch and Iron Warriors.  As it is, the list is Black Legion, so I guess I'll have to wait.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Shagrats Skyboyz
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 3:39 pm 
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It's always about the money, I manage a business with about 600 customs and believe me - it's always about $ ?:{ ? And again you're correct Jimbo, the older I get the less time I /we have to game ?:( ...  And Neal you and I and Tas too, know well about fire power !  :D  My troopers liked nothing better than "raining fire and steel" and blowing stuff up ! But who doesn't ?! :laugh:   Maximus would approve  :) ...

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Tas
 Post subject: Shagrats Skyboyz
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 11:11 pm 
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I remember doing a missile shoot one time off Hawaii and we fired 3 in one salvo (a rarity in poeacetime).  I remember thinking as I did my bit and pushed my buttons...

"You know, the cost of these missiles is probably the same as all the tax I will ever pay in my life.  I am therefore financing this entire shoot.  Its worth it!"

Strength and Honour!

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Shagrats Skyboyz
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 4:09 am 
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Ah yes, a Training/Practice TOW missile (used to) cost about $3000.00 a shot ... ??? Hmmm ?  That's a pretty good weekend in Vegas or here in my home town !!!  (Names withheld to protect the innocent)  :D

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Tas
 Post subject: Shagrats Skyboyz
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 10:42 am 
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Hmmm...these were Harpoon missiles for which each at the time you didnt get any change from 750k

Now that is a HUGE weekend anywhere :p

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Shagrats Skyboyz
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 4:18 pm 
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I could live on that quite well, for a long, a long time ...  :D

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Sprue Rubble
 Post subject: Shagrats Skyboyz
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 9:15 am 
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Hello,

I had a "Space Marines" box back in 1991, but never got around to playing it. I love the "epic" scale of this game...

Being a new newbie, could someone tell me in a nutshell what the differences are between all of the Epic versions (Epic-A, NetEpic, Space Marine 1rst Edition, Titan Legions, et.al)?

Tia,
Sprue.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Shagrats Skyboyz
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:34 pm 
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Netepic is based on the SM/TL mechanic, but has some important changes.  It came about when Epic40K was released and a lot of the "old guard" decided they did not like the new rules.  I haven't played, but the descriptions of the changes I've read sound as if it is a vast improvement.

Epic40K was the 1997 (?) release from GW.  It streamlined the mechanics and resulted in a much more fluid game.  IMHO, it was a big improvement.  However, while streamlining game play, a lot of the fun, fiddly bits that people liked were "abstracted" resulting in many people feeling that it lost a lot of flavor and character.  It also had problems on the business side with marketing support.  Those two factors combined to make it fail as a game line.

Epic Armageddon (E-A) is the latest attempt to resolve the issues and re-release the game (scheduled for November, 2003).  It's in the final playtesting stages, and you can download the rules from the Fanatic Games website.  Personally, I think it is the best ruleset of the three from GW (can't comment on Netepic).  It put most of the character of the units which had been abstracted out of the system back in, while also keeping the fluid game play.  In addition, Jervis Johnson's professed marketing plan and release schedule sounds fabulous to me.

If you are starting from square one, I would recomment E-A.

You will find proponents of all the systems on here, but unless you have a sizable game group that agrees to play with one of the other rulesets, you're probably not going to be able to find a game outside of the E-A stuff.  Of course, until it's actually released, that may be a bit tough, too.

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