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Sisters of Battle v 1.4

Tas

Post subject: Sisters of Battle v 1.4

Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 6:54 am

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Quote (Legion 4 @ 16 2005 May,01:05)

Very rarely does FA fire direct, right Tas ? ?

Direct fire from the guns is very, very uncool. ?Everything has gone horribly wrong and its do this or die. ?

Of course charging into a firebase when they guns are levelled and firing AP rounds is horribly nasty for the attacker, but its last ditch defence mode for the gunners

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Tas
My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/
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Legion 4

Post subject: Sisters of Battle v 1.4

Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 7:00 am

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Agreed on all points, Tas !

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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iblisdrax

Post subject: Sisters of Battle v 1.4

Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 1:42 pm

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I did manage to fight off a det of Eldar CC troops once, whichever one can teleport...cant remember which. He came in after my Artillery Co. and got too close to a Baneblade which (fortunately for me) had failed every activation roll and was sitting back there. Killed all the Eldar, no casualties to the Arty. Combination of good rolls for me, bad for him, and you gotta love those IG commisars!

my 2cents,

iblisdrax

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vanvlak

Post subject: Sisters of Battle v 1.4

Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 2:03 pm

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Hmmm - would you include WWII German 88mm flak used as anti-tank in the 'desperate measures' list? Curious.

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Legion 4

Post subject: Sisters of Battle v 1.4

Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 3:31 pm

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Not quite "V", the dreaded "88" was an Anti-Aircraft gun that was pushed into the AT roll. It's long range, accuracy and high muzzle velocity made it deadly to allied AFVs. However it could not fire indirect ... like a field gun, howitzer, or mortar. It had to have LOS. In actuality the "88" was not designed as an AT weapon but evolved into it out of need. Field Artillery are the weapons systems that I mentioned above. They were designed to fire indirect, to be called in by forward troops and probably never see their targets. And usually fired HE (high explosive) ammo. AT guns were designed to kill AFVs and AA guns designed to shoot down aircraft. These last two forms of artillery could not fire indirect ... FA, AT and AA are guns but all were designed for different roles. So to be "reality-centric", in E:A, any weapons that can fire indirect, should be on Sustained (FF), and not fire on the turn it moves.

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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vanvlak

Post subject: Sisters of Battle v 1.4

Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 4:53 pm

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Hmm, ok, I get the point, and I guess you and Jimbo get my vote. Interesting, this.

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PitFiend

Post subject: Sisters of Battle v 1.4

Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 9:34 pm

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Location: Nottingham, UK

Hmmm. On the other hand, your Basilisk is described in the fluff (one of the 40k IG books i think) as not just being an artillery vehicle, it's described as being used for direct fire during assaults.

And, your Leman battle tanks fire HE dustbin rounds as standard rather than AP, where any real world tank is armed to just fire AP.

I know there were WWII (probably) AVRE tanks which fired dustbin rounds, which were used to support the regular tanks against infantry, but i've never even seen pics of those.

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iblisdrax

Post subject: Sisters of Battle v 1.4

Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 5:04 am

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There were some 5 inch guns mounted on WWII battleships and cruisers that were used in dual purpose roles, ie they were used as AA guns with proximity fused rounds and could fire indirectly with normal HE rounds. Those were mounted on ships, but I suppose one could design a modenized version.... if there were a reason to.

my 2cents,

iblisdrax

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Legion 4

Post subject: Sisters of Battle v 1.4

Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 5:56 am

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O.K. guys, any form of artillery can fire direct. ?FA was used in direct fire roles in many urban battles, like Stalingrad, Manila, etc. Tanks and FA can fire numerous type rounds based on target. ?Example, the 88 after it proved to be a good AT weapon, the Germans made AT as well as AA rounds. Tanks in many cases, carry both AT and HE rounds so they can engage various targets. US FA in WWII and Korea had HE and AT rounds, so that if the had to they could fire either based on the target. AT would be used in direct fire mode against AFVs. ?Most M1 tanks in Iraq were probably carrying mostly AT rounds and there are various AT rounds available. However,
HE/Anti-personnel are made for the M1's 120mm. ?You guys are getting a bit confused I think. ?MBTs are designed to shoot while moving, or in WWII stop briefly and shoot then move on. And can load various rounds - AT, HE, etc. ?FA has to set up, align the guns so they all shoot in the same direction, etc. and were designed to fire indirect. ?But that does not mean if they had to, they could not aim directly at targets, like tanks that had broken thru the front line and were roaming in rear areas. ?And this happened in WWII and Korea, on occasions. In Vietnam, FA and tanks had "Beehive" rounds that made the cannon into a giant shot gun and were used in direct fire mode against VC and NVA. ?The point of the question was why in E:A FA could shoot and move in the same turn ? ? In reality it shouldn't as Jimbo and I have stated. ?Being a former military professional, my knowlegde of warfare is a bit more extensive than most. So my perceptions will be different than the average gamer. ?Having commanded air assault infantry and mech company teams in combined arms operations during a 10? year period, I see things from a "tainted", reality-centric point of view. ?A recommendation, besides watching more of the History Channel, is get a copy of "TANK" by Macksey & Batchlor. ?It is a good tutorial on AFVs, FA, rounds, etc. ? ? :;):

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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Mojarn Piett

Post subject: Sisters of Battle v 1.4

Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 7:46 am

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If we were talking about a RealWurld game I'd agree. But in RealWurld there are no plasma or laser cannons in use either. Not to mention void shields, teleportation devices, spirit stones, warp gates and the like.

Maybe they just have good fire control computators or whatever. Even though Imperial technology seems to be at the between-the-wars level as the tanks have no suspension or (in 40k) rangefinders.

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Tas

Post subject: Sisters of Battle v 1.4

Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 7:56 am

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L4 is correct, but one other pertinent point needs to be brought out: trajectory

Naval Guns and guns designed to direct fire (AT, AA) have flat trajectories. ?Its makes for the fastest way to the targets and the most accurate means. ?It also means that the guns get crested - ie cant hit targets behind ridges etc because the flat trajectory will hit the mountain, thus targets in these dead zones are immune to fire (unless the gun move positon of course)

Artillery (especially howitzers) is designed to 'lob' shells high and over intervening terrain to hit any target location.

Thus over a very short distance, yes you can direct fire your field artillery or even bombard a land target with your naval gun, but their fire control and ballistics are different and dont swap well. Thus you do get AP (eg beehive) rounds for arty, but its for self defence of the firebase only.

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Tas

Post subject: Sisters of Battle v 1.4

Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 8:00 am

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Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 17 2005 May,16:46)

Quite right Mojarn, but plasma guns and lasers are direct line of sight weapons too so the same principles apply!

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Legion 4

Post subject: Sisters of Battle v 1.4

Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 3:47 pm

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Yes Tas, that has always been my contention with Epic Sci-Fi vs. Reality ... it can happen. Drake with Hammer's Slammers does a good job of blending both. ? I feel regardless of the "facts" that Epic is Sci-fi, certain points of reality have to come into "play". ?As Tas just said. And as I have said before, Epic is a high tech version of WWII. Field guns, howitzers, mortars, AT guns, infantry support weapons, AAA/ADA, missiles, rockets, MBTs, etc., etc., whether fired/used by Nazis, and Orks or Japs and Eldar, etc., etc. all should follow certain priciples. Whether lasers, plasma cannons, power guns, kinetic energy weapons, etc., etc. - weapons work/function a certain way, in combat/field conditions. ?We prefer to play Epic as a high tech version of WWII and so we see things in a certain paradigm. ?Now many gamers have little to no knowledge of history or military experience, so to them "it's all cool, bright, shiny stuff " (flashback to the circus colors of the SM2/TL era ! "The Horror ... the horror "! :ghostface:

) ?So in my mind saying, "it's Sci-fi and you can get away with anything", "don't cut no ice" with this former Slammer's trooper ! ? :laugh:

?And if you don't know the difference in all the real world weapons I mentioned above, then do some research ... Plus check out the sources that I mentioned. ?Or paint your infantry pink, rush them out in the open, roll your purple FA up along side with you orange tanks, roll the die, have a good time ... but don't call it a WAR-game ! :laugh:

? And as always do what works for you not me ! ?I'm just stating my skewed opinion ! ? :;):

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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Mojarn Piett

Post subject: Sisters of Battle v 1.4

Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 4:10 pm

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Well, all I'm saying is that I think nowadays SP artillery opens fire a bit faster than WWII era artillery after arriving to a fire position. And I think that even with the supposedly backwards technology of the imperium their SP guns would be faster than todays versions. Even if the growth is not linear it's a long way to the 41st millenium.

And it just happens that I have read my share of military history & tactics. Even though I am not a professional soldier I'm not ingorant of such matters either. :-:

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Legion 4

Post subject: Sisters of Battle v 1.4

Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 4:14 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
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I know you're not, and you know your stuff, Mojarn. ?Most guys on this site do. ?I hope I didn't offend you, I did not mean to offend anyone. ?I'm just stating my view of how we see/play Epic. ? :;):

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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