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Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...

 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:41 pm 
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Legion-4:
Fair enough. Perhaps I should have stated it differently. I find it frustrating when someone says that Titans don't work as fire platforms (and by extension that they are useless), when their stats clearly aren't designed to be fire platforms.


Dafrca:
Hmmm... I've had opponents try that. I generally delay the Titan activation as long as possible to discourage objective squatting. When they do, it usually comes as a shock to them just how much firepower and damage a Titan or Gargant on Sustained Fire can really do.

- I even once had an Eldar player try to oppose a Great Gargant with a Phantom Titan. I did a normal action, intending to move within 15cm and fire, followed by another formation instigating a firefight with the Gargant in support. Unfortunately, the Gargant alone broke the Titan, allowing him to retreat, and depriving me of my well-deserved Orkish victory.

- Then again, I have to remind myself from time to time that I favor high-intensity, bloody games. I generally place objectives close together to force my opponent to concentrate in a smaller area. I tend to do better in attrition-style combat, probably because I am a compulsive number-cruncher and can concentrate on making my firepower do the maximum amount of damage.

- That entire style of play certainly favors the Titan-as-fortress tactic, as there is little chance it will be left unsupported.

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:54 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 20 2003 Aug.,06:41)
Legion: ?Fair enough. ?Perhaps I should have stated it differently. ?I find it frustrating when someone says that titans don't work as fire platforms (and by extension that they are useless), when their stats clearly aren't fire platforms.

Odd, the only time the Titans have worked for me is when I have used them as "fire platforms". ???

Quote (nealhunt @ 20 2003 Aug.,06:41)
dafrca: ?Hmmm. ?I've had opponents try that. ?I generally delay the titan activation as long as possible to discourage objective squatting. ?

I play IG so I seldom have the ability of delaying longer then they can. Once they "contest" the objective at the end of turn three I no longer have clear "title" and thus no longer have the goal met.

Quote (nealhunt @ 20 2003 Aug.,06:41)
I generally place objectives close together to force my opponent to concentrate in a smaller area. ?[snip] That entire style of play certainly favors the Titan-as-fortress tactic, as there is little chance it will be left unsupported.

As I said above, maybe I have not been using mine right. I will try placing the objectives as ?close as I can and see what happens. Worth a try, right?

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:01 pm 
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Neal,

I believe that Titans are useful weapons platforms and that's how we have used them for years.

However, your description of a Titan as a Fortress would be similar to mine as a Weapons Platform. And I think it is a case of the France 1940 anology again. ?

It would be interesting and fun to see how we would fair if played an E-A game, one-on-one... your concept of Titans vs. mine... ?:;): ?

Another great historical "what if!" :laugh:

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:13 pm 
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>> Your description of a Titan as a fortress would be similar to mine as a weapons platform.


Ah... Well... That changes things considerably.

- I generally think of "eggshells wielding sledgehammers" when I hear the term "weapons platform." To me, that term puts the emphasis on firepower over armor. I think of Cobra and Apache choppers, as opposed to Hinds, which I mentally classify as flying armor.

- I definitely think Titans are more like big anthropomorphic tanks, so if that translates to "weapons platform" in your brain housing group, I guess we agree. :D

- Also, on a historical note, I have been under the impression that battleships were pretty vulnerable to each other's guns, and that anything resembling a direct hit by an enemy salvo meant you were going down. To me, that's not a good Titan analogy at all. They are much more "stand and deliver" according to the background.

- If I'm wrong about the battleships, please feel free to disabuse me of the notion. Obviously, that would make a difference in whether the analogy was accurate, and help me understand the tactics mentioned.

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:05 pm 
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Neal,

More and more it sounds like we are not as far apart as it at first seemed.

Quote (nealhunt @ 20 2003 Aug.,08:13)
I generally think of "eggshells wielding sledgehammers" when I hear the term "weapons platform."  To me, that term puts the emphasis on firepower over armor.  I think of Cobra and Apache choppers, as opposed to Hinds, which I mentally classify as flying armor.

Interesting how we each hear the same word and think of different things. When I hear the words ?weapon platform? I think of a role. Like the difference between a Tank, a Tank Killer, AFV, and Artillery. All have guns/missiles but each has a different role. When I say ?Weapon Platform? I think of something that has, as their primary role, the job of bringing firepower to the situation. The amount of armour would be a part of the role and where it would need to go. A tank killer, something that could also be seen as a Weapon Platform would need more armour then say an Artillery Unit.


Quote (nealhunt @ 20 2003 Aug.,08:13)
Also, on a historical note, I have been under the impression that battleships were pretty vulnerable to each other's guns, and that anything resembling a direct hit by an enemy salvo meant you were going down.  To me, that's not a good titan analogy at all.  They are much more "stand and deliver" according to the background.
You bring up a very good point here. When I say Battleship maybe I should be clear on the era I was thinking off. How Battleships were used in WWI is very different from how they were used in Post WWII. I was thinking more along the lines of how the ship was used in the invasions at the end of WWII and in some of the actions sense. Not in the ?Grand Naval Battles? but as a mobile heavy artillery and support vehicle.

I know this is a mental vision I have that may be from a point of ignorance of real navy doctrine, but I think of modern Battleship use more along the lines of the way the Wisconsin and the Missouri were used in the Persian Gulf war. They fired their 16 inch guns and fired their cruise missiles at enemy that was a long way away.

When you bring a Battleship to conflicts like the Persian Gulf war they sit far from the shore, and fires into the enemy positions. It uses the guns and missiles to soften them up for the troops and tanks. For me, at least so far, that is how I have used the Titan. He tries to stay away from the assault battles and lends his power to support the tanks in their bid for the battlefield.

But, you do bring up an interesting point of view and I will try it. :D

dafrca

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:32 pm 
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I see we are all more in agreement than we may have first thought. A weapons platform can be a tank, ship, etc., IMO.

Armor protection will vary, some AFVs have more armor thickness than others, but they still mount a main gun, and secondary weapons like MGs. That is similar to a warship with main/primary batteries and secondary batteries. A heavy tank has more armor than a medium tank. And again, a Cruiser (CA) has more armor and bigger guns than a Destroyer (DD), and a Battleship (BB) more than both of them. ?

So Titans are sort of the same kind of thing, I've made this comparison before, so a:
- Warhound: a DD or light tank
- Reaver: a CA or medium tank
- Warlord: a BB or a heavy tank
- Imperator: a class by itself like the IJN Yamato or a super heavy tank like the WWII German Maus or E100. ?

As far as gunships go, the Soviet Mi-24 Hind may have more armor than the US Cobra or Apache, but fire power is similar. The Mi-24 had problems with the Stinger and the Apache with RPGs. ?

And if you study the naval battles of early WWII and even Jutland in WWI, you will see many warships pummeled each other before one was sunk or dead in the water. (The Bismarck vs. the ill fated Hood was an anomaly!) ? ?

So I think, again, our definitions may be different, but we are basically in agreement. My suggestion, we all should watch more of the History Channel! :laugh:

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:49 pm 
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Hi!

Many of the battleshields of WWI and standard in WWII they had armored hulls and decks to withstand many direct hits, so a single salvo, even a good one was hardly enough to sink one. They were built with this in mind. As a matter of fact the sinking of the Hood was due to the fact that thier decks and certain aspects of their hull did not have the armor plating other ships of the day had. Add a lucky shot from the Bismark and the Hood sinks in under 10 minutes.

So titans work pretty much the same way, they can stand and pummel each other quite a bit, but a lucky shot in a nbad place can end the combat prematurely.

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:08 pm 
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Exactly! ?

US Carriers suffered from the same problem - no armored decks as opposed to the UK's which were well armoured. The learning curve is steep in combat... ?

And as Dafrca said in the previous post, warships moved into the fire support role as ship-to-ship battles went out of favor, (for many reasons). ?

So Titans can provide fire support to the grunts & tanks or go into the Titan vs. Titan role...

It's up to you and your opponent... :;):

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:20 am 
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Hi!

Its funny that certain information is known but not acted upon quickly, even in war.

The American carriers suffered greatly from those wooden decks, but since they were winning with them never "upgraded" them. Perhaps if they did the kamikaze attacks would have hurt less.

A plane full of bombs hitting an wooden deck must hurt...

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:52 am 
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Quote (primarch @ 21 2003 Aug.,10:20)
Hi!
Its funny that certain information is known but not acted upon quickly, even in war.
The American carriers suffered greatly from those wooden decks, but since they were winning with them never "upgraded" them. Perhaps if they did the kamikaze attacks would have hurt less.
A plane full of bombs hitting an wooden deck must hurt...
Primarch


OK, several separate issues here, and I will really endeavour not to get too much "into the weeds" here, but things aren't quite as simple as they may seem (which is usually the case! :) ).

- Hood: She blew up and sank within two minutes. Yes, she had wooden decks, and less heavily armoured magazines, but this was done intentionally as part of the advanced dreadnought design. Quicker to build, lighter and more manouvrable at sea; they had the firepower of a BB but the agility of a cruiser. It doesn't matter how heavily armoured you are, something can always penetrate it, and better to use speed to not get hit in the first place, yes? ?Well, that was the thinking of the time. ?

Some evidence suggests that Hood had additional secondary armament ammunition stored on the upper decks. It was this that was hit, and ingited which then caused a massive secondary explosion directly down into the primary magazine. Not much can be done about that as the 3 survivors of the 1200+ crew could attest to...

- Wooden deck Carriers: It is very true that much of the bomb and Kamakazi damage was exacerbated by the wooden decks of the US carriers. Again, the carriers were deigned specifically for wooden decks so they could be built quicker, move faster and be repaired more easily. If the USN fleet had armoured carriers, they probably wouldn't have been able to arrive in a timely fashion to make a difference. Only a few hours would have made the difference at Midway. And longer repair times would have meant less carriers and thus less decisive airpower would have been present at other battles.

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:33 am 
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That's basically, what I had read and saw on both the subjects.  But the point being, I guess, from my standpoint, is that Titans can be equated to warships or tanks ... depending on your predilections.  :;):

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:18 am 
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Hi!

WWII was definitely the great war of attrition and "quantity" was the key to victory for allies, which is quite the contrary to modern day armies of the "west" which certainly go for quality.

The naval ship yards in Brooklyn and Viriginia were making ships at a ridiculous pace. The V-ships (Victory ships) were pumped out at such a prodigious rate the Axis powers could never hope to outproduce the US.

So, as Tas pointed out it was more important to produce machines of war quick than to "upgrade' known deficiencies. Better carriers and battleships DID come out, but most saw action in late 1944-45, when they outcome was pretty much decided and they weren't really necessary.

I think Titans are more like the battleships of old, big strategic weapons were you needed your own battleships to face them and bring them down. I always thought the 40k universe was more in tune with WWI stuff than later eras. Land raiders look like Mark I's, Leman Russ is the French Renault, the Squat mega-cannon the "Paris gun" and heck we even have Zepplins! Don't forget Gyrocopters, which look like some WWI biplanes minus the fans.

That may also explain the GW love for useless frontal assaults to engage in hand-to-hand combat. Very WWI-ish. Too bad they forgot tanks have heavy bolters and such which make those tactics very unlikely.

Primarch.

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:23 am 
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Yes, I see Epic as high-tech version of WWII... and there are a lot on anologies there. ?

I say WWII over WWI because there is much more mechanization.

However, Primarch, your comparisons are valid, in my mind... :;):

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:30 am 
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Hi!

True, all the tanks and mech vehicles is very WWII, of course if they stopped using them as mechanical horses to charge into combat leap out to fight with their fearsome chain swords and axes it might look a tad more like a conventional blitzkreig.

But thats 40k for you, its little WWI, WWI and some nice colonial dragoon action thrown in for good measure.  :)

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:37 am 
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Yes, 40k, the older stepbrother no one in the Epic family, likes to talk about or mention ... :laugh:

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