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Scout screen vs. Air Assault

 Post subject: Re: Scout screen vs. Air Assault
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:16 am 
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Instead of magical Sentinels blocking Thunderhawks from landing 6cm away, try being ready for the coming engagement with Overwatch fire and maybe even shooting down the plane in the first place (not easy but possible and at least placing an important BM first).

Aerial transports are allowed to land inside ZoC. It's in the game rules. Engageing formations are allowed to enter multiple ZoC as long as they head for the nearest enemy formation.

Planetfall and teleporters are not allowed to land/appear in ZoC because they are forms of free movement. An aerial transport has to face possible AA/CAP/Overwatch (if transported units engage once landed) and therefore is not restricted by ZoC on the ground.

We have over 3 years of up to approximately 20 individuals playing Epic in Perth with no problem allowing aerial transports to land in multiple ZoC. It hasn't broken the game.

I look forward to Neal finishing the FAQ's and then we can put this discussion behind us. I know everyone will playdifferent rules across the world but that is not a problem for me. As long as people are playing Epic and enjoying themselves they can decide whatever they like in the 5 min warmup.

Just play the game!

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 Post subject: Re: Scout screen vs. Air Assault
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:17 am 
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LoL - we have 7+ years and 80+ players across the UK in hundreds of tournament games (quite apart from other private games), who play that Air Transports may not enter multiple formation ZoCs (ie that scout screens can deflect Air assaults) and have not had problems with that either :D


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 Post subject: Re: Scout screen vs. Air Assault
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:40 pm 
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TBH either solution is fine with me. And if the community at large cannot find a non-divisive solution we will houserule it.

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 Post subject: Re: Scout screen vs. Air Assault
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:07 pm 
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We have been playing for a while (over a year) that Scout screens could not impede Air Assaults.

TbH until 2 years ago, our scout screens could not even protect from teleports/tunnelers. We played this completely wrong and we all feel this change was for the better.

Now our defensive formations are protected by AA, scouts and OW, and Basilisks have found their niche. (9 shots on OW is a rather good deterrent to Air assaults, especially with 3-6 Hydras and 6 Rough Riders in support).

Unless I am mistaken, our interpretation of the rule is that you must use the intermingled assault rules if the units are intermingled, and you actually penetrate the ZoCs of the different formations, if you can.

So in this specific string of cases, if the scouts ARE in the 5 cm range of the artillery and entering their ZoC is necessary to assault the artillery, the the Air assaulting formation must assault the scouts and the artillery, and the scouts may countercharge. This we feel makes scout screening less abusive.

So then it has become an evaluation of risk on whether to start the game within or without the 5 cm distance, depending on Air Assault or teleporting enemy formations.

I have even seen Sentinels and Rough riders defending OW Basilisks and Hydras against marines that deployed both teleporting Terminators and Thunderhawk troops. In those circumstances, the very first actions of the very first turn are quite decisive, which we all enjoy. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Scout screen vs. Air Assault
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:25 pm 
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LordotMilk wrote:
Mephiston wrote:
E&C... I still don't play barrages the way Jervis wants most games >:D


Just to be certain, what is the correct way you are referring too?

Am using a phone so can't be certain this link works:
http://web.archive.org/web/200304040055 ... 0CORERULES

Open that file (2002 playtest rules) in MSWord format or similar.
The barrage section includes an example of play that was left out of the final printed rulebook.

Most EpicUK players seem to use a house rule where you just roll X dice and then apply the hits back-to-front (so characters/valuable units are almost never hit).

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 Post subject: Re: Scout screen vs. Air Assault
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:55 pm 
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ill start another thread on this.

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 Post subject: Re: Scout screen vs. Air Assault
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:10 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
LordotMilk wrote:
Mephiston wrote:
E&C... I still don't play barrages the way Jervis wants most games >:D


Just to be certain, what is the correct way you are referring too?

Am using a phone so can't be certain this link works:
http://web.archive.org/web/200304040055 ... 0CORERULES

Open that file (2002 playtest rules) in MSWord format or similar.
The barrage section includes an example of play that was left out of the final printed rulebook.

Most EpicUK players seem to use a house rule where you just roll X dice and then apply the hits back-to-front (so characters/valuable units are almost never hit).

I am not sure this is correct.

Ever since the "barrage debate" that you started, I think many / most people dice separately for each different unit type, so leaders and 'specialist' units are hit quite frequently.


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 Post subject: Re: Scout screen vs. Air Assault
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:34 pm 
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Aye, my mistake.

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 Post subject: Re: Scout screen vs. Air Assault
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:28 am 
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I certainly did not want to get into a 'who's got the biggest' contest with EpicUK as that would be silly.
The point of my noting the size of our local community was to show that I'm not theoryhammering. We've played this way for years with no problem at all. Aerial assaults into multiple ZoC are not ruling or ruining the game.

I do not want this to get turned into an anti EpicUK thing. I have great respect for the good things that EpicUK is doing for our game in the UK. Heck, I use several of their lists in my events here in Perth (nids and Ulani to name a few).

As to the comment about it being my way is the right way... I'm one voice on the NetEA rules committee. I was asked to join by Mephiston and Neal has kindly asked me to continue on. I don't think that my one voice is going to be enough to declare a ruling for the FAQ. We are a team.
I believe there was a consensus on this topic in our discussions that would allow aerial transports to land in multiple ZoC as long as the transport was in base contact with the intended target formation (or at least closer to the target formation than the scouts). I support this and it fits entirely within the rules and the scout screen FAQ.

Here is the relevant rule from 1.7.3 of the NetEA Tournament Pack:
Quote:
Units may not enter an enemy zone of control while they move, unless they are undertaking an engage action and use their charge move to get into base contact with the nearest enemy unit whose zone of control they have entered.


Another relevant quote from 4.2.5 of The 2012 Tournament Pack:
Quote:
Transport aircraft are treated in the same manner as war engine transport vehicles


Here is the relevant FAQ from the 2012 NetEA Tournament Pack:
Quote:
Q:It is possible for an aircraft to assault into a formation which is completely covered by the Zones of Control of a formation of Scout units. That would force the dismounting troops to enter the ZoC of the scout formation, which is not allowed. How should this work?
A:In general, treat this as if the unloading formation is starting a move in enemy ZoC. They are already Engaging the target formation, so that requirement is met. The other requirement is that they must attempt to move out of the enemy ZoC. Keep in mind that as enemy units are contacted, they lose their Zone of Control.
If the dismounting troops enter a target’s ZoC, they must attempt to reach base contact with that unit, per the charge rules. the dismounting troops can move out of all enemy ZoC (avoiding the target’s ZoC entirely and escaping the screening ZoC), they may choose to do so instead of charging to base contact. the dismounting troops cannot escape all enemy Zones of Control, they must attempt to reach base contact with the target formation.


Finally, the Scout Screen FAQ that is also linked to this discussion(2.1.12 from the 2012 NetEA Tournament Pack and from GW's FAQ page) :
from the GW FAQ wrote:
Q:It’s possible to place a Scout unit just behind another friendly unit, so that the Scouts 10cm ZOC covers the friendly unit too. If this happens, can I charge the non-Scout unit? The rules say I can’t enter a ZOC unless I’m charging the unit it belongs to.
A:You are, of course, allowed to charge the unit! If an explanation is needed, then let’s say that the rule for moving into base contact with the enemy takes precedence over the rule for not entering another unit’s ZOC. However, any player who has attempted to use this tactic to stop a charge should hang their head in shame!


It would be interesting to see how other communities around the world play this?

*edited to also mantion the GW official FAQ on Scout Screens which is applicable to this situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Scout screen vs. Air Assault
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:50 am 
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I will admit, Ginger's comment about number of players and games made me cringe a little, I think it wasn't necessary and was obvious you were using it as a justification for your views rather than a boast or claim of superiority..... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Scout screen vs. Air Assault
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:40 am 
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Slightly tongue in cheek I must admit :) However the proposed revisions to the ZOC are not needed.

RAW a unit may not enter an enemy ZOC unless it is assaulting that unit. The 'screen from behind' FAQ was needed to clarify that particular situation (and no other). This position is simple and clear, though possibly a bit unrealistic regarding scouts preventing air assaults. While it is indeed possible to set up screens that restrict assaults on more valuable formations, these are easily countered.

The revised wording is more lengthy, more complex and prone to causing further situations needing more clarification. While it may be slightly more 'realistic' the improvement is marginal at best, and the main beneficiaries are SM (who usually get to first before the opponent can set up OW) which do not need this boost.


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 Post subject: Re: Scout screen vs. Air Assault
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:57 am 
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These are not proposed revisions, they are the current NetEA FAQ rulings.
I believe that Neal was going to clear up the language a bit but the intent of the NetEA FAQ is clear.
Air assaults into multiple ZoC are allowed.

If a player wishes to play differently then that's fine as long as both agree in the 5 min warmup or if stipulated by a TO.
No one is going to hold a gun to a players head and insist that they play a certain way.

Of course, every army can start the game with 2 qualifying formations on overwatch via garrison. This along with the fact that every single AA gun can shoot for free at the beginning of the game means a proper defence can be ready for the air assault. If set up correctly, the defender can make any early turn 1 air assault a one way trip for the attacker.

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