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Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...

 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:24 am 
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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:12 pm 
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*tries to redem himself*

I certainly hear what you are saying with regard to ranged weaponry vs CC on titians, I would say that, sure range is the way to , however with preticular refrance to E:A, several titians, namely the Phantom and Warlock, come "out the box" with a powerfist. This now brings up the situation where You have your Phantom titian and your opponet has a Warlord. In a ranged contest between the two, I'd say the Phantom, dispite its Halo field, is going to lose... quite baddly too I suspect. I think the only option the Phantom has is to charge headlong towards the Warlord, speed of 25cm is pritty good too, to heck with ranged weaponry, and hope the Halo Field holds.


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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:56 pm 
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Hi!

Part of the problem is that GW still produces its titans armed the same way they where when the game was introduced 14 years ago. At least earlier you got a large weapon mix to mitigate this, but if newer kits come with fixed weaponry, I think they should be with more long range weapons and leave close combat weapons for expansion blisters.

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 2:02 pm 
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Titans are just fire magnets to me, they rarely redeem the initial cost in kills or in victory points.

Whenever I take them I use them as a psycological weapon, and I never take CC weapons (save from on my Reaver as it is my only reaver :( and it has a powerfist).

Note I never take Warlords, either Warhounds or Reavers are enough for me.

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 2:18 pm 
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Hi!


Note I never take Warlords, either Warhounds or Reavers are enough for me.


This is very common. Mainly because in previous versions the warlord is TOO slow and the reactor is targetted from the front (utterly flawed). Reavers and warhounds can use cover better too and thus are generally favored over warlords.

I always felt they should have 8 shields, not 6. But thats another topic.

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 2:48 pm 
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Should have been raised in the NetEPIC revision :p

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 3:03 pm 
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I sort of agree with Legion-4 about arming Titans, but let's be honest, is a humaniod robot the best platform for all of these weapons?

It would probably be better to take the four weapon systems and stick them on large tracked vehicles. Hey! Four Shadowswords!

I mean, Warlords are slow, I am sure hard to maintain, stick out on the battlefield, and so on including looking cool. Giving one a powerfist is probably an Eldar thing the Imperium copied, but if you are going to give it a humanoid appeance, you might as well give it human-like abilities.

I don't play with Titans armed with close combat weapons unless I am playing with several at once, which is a rare thing these days. Back in AT/SM, if I had 5-6 Titans, 1-2 were cheapos designed to tear across the battlefield and get up, close, and personal.

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:47 pm 
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Some great comments, guys! ?

I armed all my Eldar Titans with ranged weapons and sold the close combat stuff. The parts are available from G/W US MO. ?

And Gandalf & Netepic made the point, that we have discussed before - Titans are targets and kind of "dumb." :o ?

We still use the SM-1 rule about only 25% of your force level may be Titans, off-board support (and aircraft, a modification added later!). ?

So as I said, only one or two Titans are fielded per side, if any! Off-board missiles & barrages plus aircraft may be a better buy. Or even Heavy Tanks!

However, if we decided to use Titans, I usually took one, if for nothing else then to draw fire from his Titan. But the question comes to mind, why would G/W produce a model like a Titan, which is truly of limited tactical use? ?

Oh... wait... I answered my own question...

Never mind... :laugh: ?}:)

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:24 pm 
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As much as everyone comments are realy helpful, I get the feeling I'm being miss understood. By "out the box" I mean that in E:A Eldar armylist, the Eldar Phantom and Warlock Titians for tournement spec should equiped with a power fist, 2 wing mounted pismatic laser array's and a Pulsar for the phantom or Psychic lance for the warlock. Now it is fine and dandy to play with the hard to find rules with people who know whats going on, but a lot of the time I'm playing people who weren't even born when SM came out let alone heard of it. And for the sake of sanity on all sides we end up playing straight up and down rules no matter what the titians are actualy armed with, sure it's a bit on the beardy side but it does save a lot of "What is the point of that!" arguments.

I am fast descovering that the phantom's hitting power is in CC in E:A (Even under my wacked interpritation of the rules!). Preticularly at "choice" targets.

Is anyone else finding this? Or have I got to reread the rules once more?


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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:49 pm 
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I haven't played a Phantom in EpicA yet, but in previous editions if anyone should have had a close combat weapon it is the Eldar titans.  The Holofields work their best when the phantom is moving quick, so keeping them on first orders was risky.  To me, the eldar titans might as well move into CC since they wouldn't be able to utilize their shields. . .

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:18 am 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 18 2003 Aug.,14:29)
Yes, urban terrain is not Titan friendly. Send in the grunts to clear the buildings, after the area has been pummeled by Titans, FA and airstrikes... :D


I say nuke the site from orbit...

It's the only way to be sure! ?:D

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:41 pm 
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Well that is another option, but it won't play well on CNN or ENN (Emperor's News Network) ! :laugh:

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:28 pm 
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Titans and gargants are NOT a battleship/weapons platform in the EA rules.   :angry:  It would be much more accurate to compare them to a walking fortification.  They share the following traits:

1)  Fortifcations tend to be hard to suppress.
2)  Fortifications can take a lot of punishment, i.e. they concentrate on defense over firepower.
3)  Fortifications surrender operational initiative.


Suppression.  WEs are only suppressed when their DC is matched, but that also breaks them.  Titans, being Immune to Panic, can continue to fire even when broken.  So, they have to be destroyed to really take them out of the game.

Defense.  A Warlord titan has 6 shields and DC8.  That means, assuming that no shields are regenerated, it's going to take 6 hits to down the shields, and about 24 more to give it a good chance of being taken out.  That drops to about 12 with MW attacks, and even a d3 titan-killer is going to require 3-4 hits after the shield is gone to reasonably expect to kill it.

That's going to be very difficult to pull off, especially without shields regenerating.

That leaves assaulting to kill a titan.  Again, they are tough to kill.  Many assaults do as much damage on the resolution as they do from direct FF or CC hits.  Titans are Immune to Panic, so they do not take additional hits if they lose an assault, nor do they have to retreat more than the ZoC (usually 5cm).  Every point of damage has to be done by direct attack and beat the reinforced armor, plus shields for those units in FF range.

With respect to firepower, titans have considerably less than an equivalent points value in troops and vehicles.  850 points of Orks, for instance, can easily match the number of TK weapons a titan can carry, plus quite a bit more.

Operational Initiative.  This is the biggest drawback to titans. imho.  They concentrate a lot of points in a small area and aren't terribly maneuverable.  This means that your opponent is going to get to pick where and when he fights most times.  That's what you get for sitting in your "castle" while the opposing army besieges you.


Since they match the abilities of a mobile fortress, it seems logical that would be the best way to use them.  Send them to take an objective (you get 3 turns to reach it), preferably one that also has a commanding field of fire over a second objective, and/or is close enough that the titan can contest both simultaneously.  Luckily, you get to place 2 objectives in the GT scenario, so you can plan for this.

As always, try to maximize fields of fire while maintaining some cover from wide-open LoS.  Titans are small for the points and have restricted fire arcs, so they can frequently find terrain that blocks LoS from the flanks (hindering them not at all), while still having good fields of fire.  They are also walkers, so it's easy to move them into terrain to take advantage of the -1 to be hit.

My personal experience has been that titans and gargatns fielded in this manner do, in fact, control large segments of the battlefield.

Then the test is whether your forces have surrendered too much initiative and firepower to stop the enemy from "storming the castle."   }:)

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:08 pm 
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Neal, A very nice essay. I really think that if the Titans would work that way you discribe I would buy into the whole argument you built.

So far, I have not had any luck using the Titan to "capture" objectives when a small fast formation can challange the objective at the last moment thus making the Titan a very costly usless objective holder. But then maybe I have not used them the right way. We shall see. I will go ahead and give them another try.

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 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:13 am 
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Neal,

No need to use the :angry: face! :laugh:

I see where you are coming from, but as Dafrca said, your Titan Tactics seem to be different then others.

In 1940, both the French and Germans had AFVs, and both used them very differently, as you know.

I have said how I generally use Titans, so I think this is another case of two different concepts of how to use a weapons system... only our opponents' reaction will tell...  :;):

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