And for IG, the limit is dozens of free Commissars

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~Laserwolf

Yes, we know, the game was intended to be played in the 2000-5000 points range...

But the nearly all Fearless Inspiring Leader Army (IG Commissars) is just fine to keep... right...

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~Laserwolf

Yes, we know, the game was intended to be played in the 2000-5000 points range...

Lsrwolf

I may be missing something, however are you merely referring to the Characters in the Imp Guard list or is there an all fealess 'formation' you are referring to?

If I am not mistaken (?) you are playing games beyond 5K? If that is the case, you may wish to consider some house rules to account for lists that are made to be played up to 5K. At that level, and if you are playing with a start of only 24" between you and the enemy, there is a lot of death to be dealt for sure

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Frogbear is responsible for...
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Which given the size of IG formations and there usage is a very different proposition to spirit stones Eldar. At games of a reasonable size (3-5k) both commissar IG and no spirit stone eldar are fine. I would n't be able to comment on 20k games as I haven't played any

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www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

The commissar is on a unit, spirit stones were on the formation. The two cannot be compared.

Considering what the Commissar is nearly always the last unit to die, they effectively maintain the Leader ability for the formation until the formation is completely gone. I think this is a valid comparison.

Aside from the slight chance that you could snipe him, this is essentially the same effect as spirit stones, with Inspiring and fearless as a bonus. The Commissars I face are on Ogryn stands or in Tanks and follow the current Guard Doctrine of remaining as far from actual combat damage as possible, so they are much less likely to simply die from a poor armor save as well.

Maybe your opponents put their Commissars on Guardsman stands and lead the assault to die fast, but my opponent has yet to receive that Doctrine mandate. 8-)

What I see is that stripping aspect squads of the ability to even have a leader AT ALL really hurts, especially when their fm size is less than eight.

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~Laserwolf

Yes, we know, the game was intended to be played in the 2000-5000 points range...

And the ability to have two inspiring characters is almost unique, and certainly something guard can't do. Likewise the Aspects benefit from SR4, farsight, hit and run, brilliant stats, flexible formation makeup, alternate deployment methods etc etc etc, none of which are available to those guard formations.

You can't constantly compare across armies. The armies are deliberately different in style, and overall are very well balanced at the intended 2000-5000 points range.

Your opponent must be better than any player I've played to ensure the commissar is always the furthest from the shooting or the combat

The idea that eldar have been nerfed just isn't valid - spirit stones made them to resilient losing them has made them the glass hammer they are supposed to be. IG get free leader-comissars which are vital to the way they work and making thme play like IG should eldar get hit-and-run, full movement consolidation after assaults + the avatar to make them play like eldar should - which spirit stones negated.

If there is anything that the loss of spirit stones has damaged its small formations like fire prisms, night spinners etc not aspects which are still one of the most dangerous assault formations in the game - just now if you pick too big a target and take casulaties they don't pop back unscathed the next turn

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www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Unless I only play Biel -Tan, 2x Inspiring goes away. By removing the ability to have a leader, Aspects, arguably one of the most powerful (and expensive) fms in the game, cannot get rid of 2 BMs at the end of each turn. I concur, for the really tiny fms this is even more painful. I liked how some of the lists allow us to buy Spirit stones for the fms. I would advocate allowing all fms to buy them and if the fm has an Exarch, then the Leader ability is on the Exarch unit rather than the formation.

Of course we can compare across armies, we all often do when we compare. Kind of like comparing ATSKNF to fearless. Doesn't make sense to compare Rough Riders to Ogryns...

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~Laserwolf

Yes, we know, the game was intended to be played in the 2000-5000 points range...

The point is that when comparing across armies, you have to take context into account. You can't just do as you have: "Guard get leaders, Eldar don't, that's not fair", as Eldar get many bonuses that guard don't get.

Not only that, but it's totally background fitting that Eldar have few leaders. Eldar are an army continually on the attack; they shouldn't be able to sit and take punishment then come back strong. That's just not fitting for them, and so the lack of leaders forces a very Eldar playstyle, caution and aggression combined, and not the attrition which leaders make possible. Orks can have lots of leaders in each formation because that sort of attrition warfare makes sense for them. It doesn't for Eldar.

Huh? They still get rid of half their BMs at the end of the turn if they rally, leader just removes an extra one. They can certainly remove a lot more than 2 BMs.

That's my point. If they have 2BM, they get rid of one. Leaving one. They cannot get rid of two (or three for that matter). Fms with a leader get rid of them all. Based on the fluff it seems that any such well trained disciplined troops would have the ability to better dismiss the effects of BMs.

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~Laserwolf

Yes, we know, the game was intended to be played in the 2000-5000 points range...

My apologies if anything I have said comes across as "it's not fair". I do not recall every having said that. I am well aware that the armies are designed differently.



My comments come from:
1) Seeing inconsistencies in the justification for abilities
2) Trying to point out examples that through our non-traditional way of playing bring potential issues to light that may be relevant to the betterment of the game.

So like the background fitting comment, this implies that the Space Marines with their ready access to leaders means that they, too, are attrition warfare army. This seems incongruent, seeing as how much time and effort is required to create SM leaders.

I get it that all of the non-Eldar players are quite happy with removing most of their access to leaders. Our experiences are showing that an otherwise powerful elite assault unit is burdened with carrying BMs for longer than would make sense for such a well trained disciplined fm. This last game I fielded 15 Aspect fms and witnessed the effects of 2-3 BM's quite often.

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~Laserwolf

Yes, we know, the game was intended to be played in the 2000-5000 points range...

Can I ask that you and your opponent play a couple of games at 3000 points? I think if I were constantly playing at your high points level I'd see things similar to who you do. If you can play some games at tiny (for you) points you may see why many here are so resistant to your points of view.