As I read it, yes.

It does make CC specialist scouts more attractive.

SG

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Given that you've actually quoted the rule that you then misrepresent I'm really surprised that you're attempting this. Just like Ginger you appear to be in the misbelief that its okay to alter the rules as you see fit to support your position.

When you stated "move out of the ZoC and not charge." You've added 'and not charge'... thats not in the orginal. Yes, they must charge the enemy, and if you read the rules for charging the enemy it clearly tells you that you don't have to end up in base contact if you don't want to, meaning that ending the charge move within 15cm and out of the ZOC is perfectly legal.



And 4) There is no need for any units to get into base-to-base contact if you don't want them to.

You're done. It doesn't really matter how much you want to whine about how the rules aren't perfect or announce spirit of the rules (which from where I'm standing are on my side according to point 4 which you appear to be blissfully happy to ignore just because you want to.

And yet again you're talking about rules which apply to units that have entered the zone of control, they remain not applicable to this situation as I explained to you previosuly. You're just going around in pointless circles in the misguided belief that if you repeat yourself enough I'll agree with you and we can both be wrong.



That sort of attitude isn't needed, if you can't discuss things maturely feel free not to.

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"A good orbital insertion is one you walk away from, a great one is where they can use the Thunderhawk again." Roboute Guilliman.

I added 'and not charge' because the rule makes it clear that you must either charge the enemy - thereby using your charge move to BtB - or move out of ZoC. Move, not Charge. The rule makes it clear that this is an exclusion - one or the other. You may not use your charge move to move out of ZoC, nor may you charge a differant unit (not part of the discussion, but relevent).

Given that the first person to answer the original post was Hena, I suggest you at least look at what others are saying. Hena is one of the three members of the Net ERC. Not an end-all, but an indication that perhaps others PoVs are worth taking a look at.

I'll take my leave of this thread now, as the tone has degenerated to the point I doubt there will be any reasoned discussion. If you want to be civil, I'll gladly discuss my opinions with you.

SG

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Yup, If you want to use FF when you make a charge move, stop outside the enemy ZoC but within 15cm of target enemy units. The way the rules are worded, you may only charge into the enemy ZoC if you can get into B-B with the enemy unit. And Skimmers can avoid fighting CC by 'rising up' above their attackers, forcing that particular part of the combat to be fought using FF.

But the bone of contention is over the situation where a unit finds itself starting its activation inside an enemy ZoC:-

• Hymirl contends that it is free to move as it likes because it has not specifically entered the enemy ZoC.
  
• My contention being that, if it is not moving away then it is forced to charge the enemy; and if the enemy ZoC is still in place when the unit starts to move, it is compelled to attempt to move into B-B.

This particular situation is rare. It only occurs if scouts deliberately ZoC an enemy formation, or a Fearless unit loses an assault and elects to remain in place (broken units still exert a ZoC). It only occured in one of my games over the past 4-5 years and the 'trap' was avoided.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

SG, I think you may not be right on this particular point. As I understand it you may declare a charge on a second formation, provided the charge move takes you out of the original enemy ZoC. After all, the unit is moving out of the ZoC by charging elsewhere.

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"Play up and play the game"

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

I think that is a slippery slope to what Hymirl is contending. If you can charge out of ZoC, then you can charge out of ZoC. If you look at ZoC as the physical extent of the unit, as I suggested earlier, you are either making a fighting withdrawal from the enemy (move out of ZoC) or assaulting the troops around you (charge to BtB). You are not likely to charge into another formation when you are already in contact with one force.

SG

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Hymirl, you appear to be equally dogmatic despite my attempts to make a suggestion to cover an aspect that is not really covered by the rules. On the question of units starting their activation inside an enemy ZoC, I agree that this discussion is pointless, not least because of the rarity of the particular details occuring.

The usual situation is where some scouts have managed to ZoC some enemy artillery preventing them from sustaining. If the ZoC is still in place by the time the artillery wants to activate and it is mobile, it usually moves away. If the artillery is static it must declare an engage activation, and then dies horribly.

The other situation is where the scouts ZoC an enemy titan to prevent it from sustaining. This is little more than a minor irritation:- either the titan charges the scouts and destroys them, or it goes somewhere else.

So, I repeat my question, what is the problem that you are having here. Have you come across some other very obscure situation that is somehow disadvantageous to either player?

Oh, and I would prefer a 'mature answer' please rather than another rant.

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"Play up and play the game"

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

No, I don't think so. Hymirl is suggesting that a unit that starts its charge move inside an enemy ZoC can 'charge' the enemy by moving outside it's ZoC to use FF. His reasoning is that it has not 'entered' the enemy ZoC, so this is not covered by 1.7.3 or the asssault rules.

However, this is really a storm in a teacup as far as I can see; where it is disadvantageous to assault, I would suggest the formation moves away rather than fight, and there is no real problem if the unit has the advantage in an assault.

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"Play up and play the game"

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Oh, I agree. But it is always interesting to see where the RaW and intent would lead in this kind of situation. Call it destructive testing. But realistically I can'r see it coming up in a game as a problem.

SG

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

There is another I can think of: units in fortifications. Put scouts (who usually have good CC) within 10cm and the units inside perfect cover will have to come charging out. Or run away. Nice way to negate cover.    May be hazardous to the scouts, though.

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I don't know and I let who care. -J.S.

I hate to say this but there's a FAQ that muddles things somewhat. 1.12.3 "Make charge move" in page 5 of the EPIC FAQ pdf in the Specialist Games section of the GW website. I'll just quote the answer.



Why does it say "start a MOVE"? Oversight, probably, on the part of the writer but as it stands it does open the door for just this particular interpretation:

1) When you start a move in a ZOC you must use that move to either move into (BtB) contact or move away.
2) The only move where you are allowed to move into BtB contact is a charge move.

Thus, you can use the charge move to move out of the ZOC.

Personally I don't find it a problem that a unit could move away and firefight. I think in real life it is called fighting withdrawal. Still, I'm the first one to admit it may have game balance issues I've never thought of so I just leave it at that. May wiser minds ponder the wording of the FAQ.

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I don't know and I let who care. -J.S.

I agree with you, Mojarn.

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"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

Thats fair enough I guess Hena.

One question I have is what the difference is between using an assault to make a fighting withdrawal from scouts, and using an assault to clip enemy formations with a clever flanking move...
In neither of them are the formation obeying the spirit of the 'all out assault'



Ginger,


The fact that I don't want to play to your house rules isn't any slur on your character, theres nothing actually wrong with your suggestion of how to play it, other than the fact that it isn't supported by the rules which is why the discussion is about. Secondly, I've never even had the situation come up but its intresting to know what the right way of playing it would be...and whether it would make a useful tactic or not.

Simply announcing "this discussion is pointless" still isn't very useful behavior... no-one is forcing you to discuss it.

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"A good orbital insertion is one you walk away from, a great one is where they can use the Thunderhawk again." Roboute Guilliman.