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Campaign proposition

 Post subject: Campaign proposition
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:08 pm 
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First of all, what are the logic behind the campaign going to be? What does a 'win' actually do? How much impact does it have.

In a long term campaign things should be kept interesting. Like random events. Space battles in warp storms, dust clouds. Ground battles in heavy weather.

With your set-up Rastaman (great input overall) its like an besieged Imperial Sector, right? I think it should be a 'new' sector with different races emerging to gain something.

The Imperial are always the defenders in a GW campaign, something different would be cool.

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 Post subject: Campaign proposition
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:20 am 
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Quote (blackhorizon @ 09 Feb. 2006 (06:08))
First of all, what are the logic behind the campaign going to be? What does a 'win' actually do? How much impact does it have.

In a long term campaign things should be kept interesting. Like random events. Space battles in warp storms, dust clouds. Ground battles in heavy weather.

With your set-up Rastaman (great input overall) its like an besieged Imperial Sector, right? I think it should be a 'new' sector with different races emerging to gain something.

The Imperial are always the defenders in a GW campaign, something different would be cool.

Um then let me point out the obvious? Chaos with Ork allies have taken over a subsector and the imperium have launched a crusade to take the sector back. (Extermination occuring along the way of course. :)  ).

-Chaos and Orks are the defenders but have seperate worlds they occupy, and therefore there should be ork and chaos worlds always avaliable to plug in results.
-Nids are a constant strain on both sides pushing in from another direction. Clever sector map design needed here.
-Eldar can help either the imperium anywhere or they can help the orks out on their worlds for undisclosed secret reasons.
-Tau see an opportunity to expand their domain and therefore are assisting the Imperials.

I agree, drop the whole Imperium is automatically the defender. Imperium shuld go on the offensive for a change.  :cool:

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 Post subject: Campaign proposition
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:22 am 
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Quote (Ithikial @ 09 Feb. 2006 (02:20))

Ithikial wrote:
I agree, drop the whole Imperium is automatically the defender. Imperium shuld go on the offensive for a change.  :cool:



Yes, perhaps. But what is the timing of this campaign? The forces we're talking about, the Imperium simply cannot make this offensive at the time. All reserves are redeployed to Segmentum Solar and partly Obscurus. Most reserves from Ultima are redeployed to cover things. Tempestus and Pacificus aren't in good shape, and places like Ultramar have little to do but maintain their 'island defences of hope'. This is at the time of the Eye of Terror.

The Imperium simply can't go on the offensive. It can't run a swift exterminatus campaign against th Tau 'core' as it can't afford to penetrate across the Damocles Gulf without a massive waste of resources. The last big thing that we could really 'campaign' about, that wasn't the Gothic War, The Eye of Terror, the Sabbats Worlds or Armageddon 1,2,3 was the Macharius Crusade.

We've got to be a bit reasonable with it. If things work well, the Imperium can make counter attacks with everything, if it parries well. Going via the dynamic, I can see the following moves:

- Chaos makes a move against a sector.
- Tau make a move against the same sector(unbeknownst to each other).
- Eldar engineer a series of events to ensure the Orks arrive in this sector, to combat the Chaos forces 'ideally'.
- Imperium controls the sector.
- Necrons are present in the sector.
- Squats are in an asteroid belt or something(if need be)
- Tyranids appear once all forces seem to be reasonably present and well supplied. So they can't afford to move back without fighting on!

I think that's the 'biggies' covered.

You can detail the 'permutations':

Tau can fight to 2 outcomes against 7 races(win loss vs the rest of the list)
Imperium can fight to 2 outcomes against 6 races(as before, excluding Tau)
Chaos 2-5
Orks 2-4
Necrons 2-3
Tyranids 2-2
Squats 2-1

Okay, 56 outcomes(unless I'm mistaken), but they can be accomodated. It's not difficult. Each race'd have certain tallies in each direction, each corresponding to a certain win.At certain points we offer various 'boost/penalty' combos. So after the Tau have 7 vs 2 Tallies against the Orks then they can afford to fight against the Orks on the plains rather than the cities. After the Imperium gets 8 vs 2 against the Tau in Space, they can mount incisive ground attacks with a free starship addition to battles on that front...

You see the perspective?

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 Post subject: Campaign proposition
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:04 am 
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I've always wanted to play a simple game of "team Risk." What's the goal? - to take over the world (or sector in this case). What fun is that? - why, winning is the fun part, of course.

Guided campaigns, like most campaigns GW has run, rub me the wrong way. I mean, if we already know the big showdown is going to be at planet X, what's the point of playing? Whatever bonuses are gained for wins going into the final battles can't be too big, or else the disadvantaged side will just take their balls and go home.

I'm working on a psuedo-campaign that is little more than a thinly veiled game of Risk, using a sector map (not one puny subsector) instead of a world map, and players controlling a set number of army groups across the entire sector. It's won't be exactly like risk, like players won't get "new armies" each turn, nor will movement be restricted to one territory at a time, but the basic idea is the same - use armies to take and hold territory. At the end of the campaign (after set time limit), check to see which race has achieved the most goals set at the beginning of the campaign.

It will take me a while to hash out the rules, and even then I may just drop the whole thing and join in yours. In fact, that's the most likely outcome.


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 Post subject: Campaign proposition
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:31 am 
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In my opinion, semaj, I think your approach is quite good. And as for maps, I know Cybershadow has some really cool software for making ground maps. Dunno about space maps.

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 Post subject: Campaign proposition
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:44 am 
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Uhm... i think the explanation about the Empire's inhability to launch an offensive has got a point here. But also, i don't see why every star system should begin in imperial control. Maybe we could make imperials control half the sectors, orks 3 and squats 1, with the rest of the species being the "attackers", although it's only a matter of background, of course.

Rastamann's system sounds pretty good to me, although i would increase the battle conquences (maybe an Epic/BFG battle should count for a 4%, with 40k battles only counting for 1%?). ?Also, we should make special rules for some nodes, so there would be battles in "unusual conditions", like the BFG battles inside warpstorms, or Epic battles using the "Blizzards" rules from the E:A rulebook, or wathever (maybe this is getting too much complicated??)

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 Post subject: Campaign proposition
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:26 pm 
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I agree with Yuber: not every star system has to begin the campaign in Imperial hands. Also, I could see the Empire launching counterattacks to retake strategic locations, but not necessarily all-out offensives.

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 Post subject: Campaign proposition
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:55 pm 
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I must concur, even though it doesn't sound like it from what I said earlier. Dwarf Supreme has it exactly. They can strategic counter attacks and local assaults, but they simply can't mount a massive invasion of say...another sector. They can retake subsectors, wage war across sectors, but once their out of the whole area, at the current time, it's unlikely they can afford to come back.

Still, I like the idea of a division of:

50% Imperial
30% Orks (Imps-Orks embroilled in a protracted war)
5-10% Squats
10-15% uninhabited or largely 'rogue' or outwith the reach of the Imperium at the moment.

with
- the Tau arriving 'en mass' from 'Just outside this region'
- Chaos are mounting a massive assault/raid on the 'sector'(or subsector) which should coincide with the Orks next big push to hopefully 'topple' the Imperium here
- The Eldar are making a move, goading the Orks into fighting chaos rather than attacking the Imperium, but also aiding the Squats and the Tau slightly more as they're a bit more open to mutual 'manouvering'(manipulation).
- Nids show up and everybody panics.
- Necrons are simply 'present', much like the Eldar.


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 Post subject: Campaign proposition
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:19 pm 
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Well, the map I'm working from (I made it with line art in MS Word, so I can make a .pdf of it pretty easily), has 64 systems in 10 subsectors (think continents in Risk). Each system has a value of either 0,1,2,4, or 8 (denoted by different sized dots). Systems are connected by warp links, which can be of three different types: weak, medium, or strong. Some of the systems have "major" webway access. I've given 2 small subsectors to the Orks, 1 to Chaos, 1 to the Tau, and 1 is unnaligned (that one is in a Nebula); the other 5 are controlled by the Imperials. These subsectors are just "homelands" for the factions, it doesn't have much effect after that. The subsectors are also set up so that each factor can fight any other faction, so there are no overall sides.

I'm assuming that the Imperials, Ork, Chaos, Tau, and Tyranids are trying to expand their territory, while the Eldar are just trying to hold specific (exodite) system (TBD at the beginning of the campaign), and the Necrons are trying to isolate as many systems as they can (Necrons would have to act differently than the rest of the armies, I think, but thats up for discussion).

The battles between armies would be standard GT scenarios, with no modifiers, but the battles would result in forced movement of the loser (or maybe even the destruction of the losing army, in extreme cases). The overall campaign would only work if a bunch of people played, thats why I gave up on it when I was working on it for my local group. Also, I kept adding complexity to it. Now, I think, I can come up with a way to incorporate all three 40k games into one campaign just by weighting their results, but for now I'm just focusing on epic.


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 Post subject: Campaign proposition
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:01 pm 
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The only effects I see it are the places where BFG and Epic overlap. That way a solid Epic Victory in a system would BFG to have a slight boost in the planetary defenses(representing taking the system intact), whilst a swift assault in BFG allows a bit of space superiority by say allowing an arbitrary 'assault spaceship' use in a given battle. Perhaps gifting one formation a teleport move, or a allowing a spaceship pass-over(no weapons) but allowing dropships and planetfall as needed.

Things like that basically, nothing too much, but y'know the 'usual' stuff. Nothing too complex.

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 Post subject: Campaign proposition
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 11:42 am 
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I'm with you in that we should decide the level of complexity, and again say that it should be kept as lower as possible, since this is the first time the people around here try to engineer a campaign via forum and because it has to give as as little work as possible (it's a game, not a 8 hour/day work!!!)

Personally, i vote for Rastamann's original subsector idea. And that ncludes using his original subsector map although we should define every node, so we can give "colour" to the background (and also to the battles in every node. It would be nice to have us fighting in ice worlds, jungle worlds, hive worlds and the like :))

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 Post subject: Campaign proposition
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:55 pm 
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I have seen Jim's Risk Map. I like it alot, but we still need to work on it. I also like the orginal idea posted here. I think both will be fun once we worked out what we want to happen and start playing.

Daryl


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 Post subject: Campaign proposition
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 8:17 pm 
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By the way, what is "Ymga"?

Daryl


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 Post subject: Campaign proposition
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:05 am 
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Ok, here's some idea's I've come up with.

We have a collection of star systems, connected by Warp Routes. Each star system may have one or several worlds, and possibly other interesting celestial bodies. The worlds have a value representing their possible contribution to the war effort.
Ex: Three systems in a warp chain: Elsik (with a Value 8 Forgeworld), Dramis (with a value 2 agriworld and a value 5 civilized world), and Corvis Minor (with a value 1 mining colony, and a space hulk)


Each race (excepting raiders: Necron and DE at least, possibly Eldar) has "Fleets" and "Armies." Fleets are located in a system, Armies are located on planets. The actual number of Fleets and Armies don't matter all that much, as long as the amount that each race has shows their relative strength.
Ex: The Imperium holds Elsik, with a garrison of 10 armies on its world, and 7 fleets over it. The Tau hold Dramis I with 2 armies, but Dramis III is Imperium with 4 armies. The Tau and Imperium both have 3 fleets in system. Corvis minor's world is held by the Tau with a token garrison of 1. The Tau have 6 Fleets fighting with 4 Imperium fleets for the space hulk.


When multiple races have fleets in a system, BFG battles are possible. The varying number of fleets will be taken into account later.
Ex: The Tau and Imperium fleets battling in Dramis are evenly matched. A victory by either side is worth the same. But in Corvis Minor, each Tau victory will end up being more important


When multiple armies are present on a world, Epic and 40k battles are possible there. Like the BFG battles, the army levels effect the import of the battles.
Ex: The Imperium shuttles armies through the maelstrom of battle in Dramis from Elsiik and Dramis III to land on Dramis I. 3 Armies succeed, so battles there can be fought, and with an advantage for the Imperium


Every "Campaign Turn" should last for... I don't know, 2 weeks maybe? At the end of the two weeks, three things happen: First, battle results are tallied for each location. Fleets and Armies are removed according to the win ratio for each force. Next, new fleets and armies are created at uncontested worlds. Lastly, the "Strategic Command" on the forums direct any movements of fleets and armies.
The fighting for Corvis Minor's hulk has been fierce, the Imperium winning frequently despite their lesser forces. The Imperium has 6 victories, while the Tau only have 4. With the force disparities involved, this results in an equal loss for each side of 2 fleets. In Dramis, the Tau have performed well in space, scoring 4 victories to the Imperium's 2. As such, the Imperium loses 2 fleets while the Tau only lose one. On the ground of Dramis I, the Tau have acquitted themselves valiantly, but they are being overwhelmed by numbers. 4 Tau victories compared to 4 Imperium(3 Epic vics and 2 40k vics), but the Imperial forces are winning overall. The Tau lose the planet, but grind down an Imperial army.

The Imperium gets 8 new units from Elsik, deciding on 4 fleets and 4 armies. They also get new units from Dramis III, but only half normal because the system is contested. They decide on 2 fleets. Dramis I was contested on the ground this turn, and as such produces nothing. Corvis Minor's colony produces another fleet for the battle over the space hulk.

The Imperium decides to move a vast naval force of 5 fleets from Elsik to Dramis, bringing 4 armies. Those armies are vulnerable in space, but it is worth the risk. Next turn those fleets plus those in Dramis will be moved up to Corvis. Tau Command withdraws all assets from Dramis to concentrate on Corvis Minor.

[Note: All casualty figures are made up. I haven't yet constructed a casualty system, and I belive any such system will require much greater numbers of fleets and armies than I have made an example of here]



Now, when this is expanded to include double-digit (low double digit, hopefully) numbers of systems, we should have several points of conflict between several races. This is good, for the different kinds of games that can be played, but also requires some additional complexity in casualty resolution. The way I see this could be resolved is by artifically spliting forces between each opponent and calculating them seperately
Ex: On Livilius V, the Imperium, the Forces of Chaos, the Orks, and the Tau are fighting. There are 28 Imperial Armies, 15 Chaos Armies, 27 Ork armies, and 14 Tau armies. The Imperial Armies are broken up so there are effectively 7 fighting the Tau, 14 (from 13.5) against the orks, and 7 (from 7.5) against Chaos. Those numbers are from this equation:
[#Armies]*([#vs. given race Armies]/[#All enemy armies])



As for raiders like the Necrons and Dark Eldar, they may fight anywhere and everywhere against anyone and anything, as long as there is already a battle brewing. When they do so, their victories act as a half victory for one of the other races in battle of their choice. If their target wins... nothing happens. Raider victories may not count for more than 50% of the total victories against their target. Note that that is for raiders in general, Necrons and Dark Eldar cannot work together and get over 50% of the victories. They have effectively infinite forces, but they can only indirectly affect the war. The Eldar may fight as raiders in addition to holding a conventional empire, but any fight involving Eldar directly doesn't count as a raid.
Ex: Over Dalaran VI, Chaos and the Eldar are engaged, each with 5 fleets in system. Chaos wins 4 games, and the Eldar only win 2. However, the Dark Eldar, for reasons known only to them, have decided to attack Chaos here, playing three games and winning two of them. It is now Chaos 4, Eldar 3, but the loss of the Dark Eldar is irrelevant to either power.


The only other race that needs special mention is the Tyranids. They gain productivity from planets like normal, except that they gain more from undeveloped worlds (worlds will have a secondary value for nids only). In addition, the normal value of the planet will go down by one for every turn under nid control. The nid value will decline as well, by one for every two turns.
Ex: The Tyranids control two worlds, a Forgeworld of value 8(4), and a agri-world of value 2(8). Next turn, the values will be 7(4) and 1(8). Next, 6(3) and 0(7). The new units are produced before the values are reduced.


Well, that ended up being alot longer than I meant it to be... anyways, what do you think?

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